Optimal DoN finish, 4th and 5th?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think someone who consistently finishes 4th or 5th when he cashes in DoNs is playing correctly. Obviously you'd wanna be comfortably in the chip lead, but during times when you don't get AA or KK (most times), you should be playing conservatively in a DoN.

So not taking unnecessary risks (let others knock themselves out) and doing enough at the right moments is the way to go. Sometimes, you can cash without needing to ever commit your whole stack in the middle.

Of course, the downside to the conservative strategy is that your life sometimes depends on a late showdown and your AQ will get knocked off by T7 often.

play 50-50s instead of DONs, which are like the Devil's game.

Another key thing to watch out for I think is a lucky loose fish. Once he builds up a big stack, he'll do the work for you. I love these guys cuz if things break right then I can waltz into a cash.

I just had a game where this guy hit the board hard a few times and tripled up, then he was raising a lot and calling all shoves. He took out at least 3 guys by himself (might've even been 4).

A7 vs. AJ. K3 vs. TT. Then a legitimate win AT vs. KJ on the final hand.

The guy with the KJ actually made a stupid limp/call to the fish's shove. He had twice the stack size of the 6th guy. No reason to risk it there.

If you're planning on playing DoNs, I'd suggest searching for some DoN articles (stuff like ICM considerations while playing DoNs).
Learn proper push/fold game taking into consideration the payout for DoNs.
Basically you want to try to maintain a stack with FoldEquity, then picking your spots to get it in (take blinds) while approaching bubble.
Personally I can't stand them (but i get sick of STT-SNG too... but still perfer them wayyyy more than DoNs).

There was a member on here ~yr. ago who wrote some posts on a thread about his experience playing DoNs (can't recall what it was exactly but basically... building a bankroll by multi-tabling DoNs, starting at low(est) buyins & working their way up to the $10s (& beyond?). They did quite well at them. I'll try to look for the thread & will post the link here for ya... 'if' you're interested in playing them?

Here's a thread you might want to check out 3 day $10 to $500 DoN Challenge (+ concept posts)

gl

Thank you. Will check it out tonight when I get home.

I've been playing DoNs intermittently, usually when I get bored with cash or when to get a change of scenary while on a bad run. Have done ok at them, but always looking for ways to improve.

You're absolutely right. If you have a big stack at the end, you've done more work than necessary. The only exception is if you can wield that big stack to end the game quickly enough to add another game... but that's not usually going to be how it works. 2x SNGs are not unlike MTT satellite strategy. Extra chips are just vanity and peace of mind. In most cases, if you have a big stack at the end, you exposed yourself to higher variance than optimal.

I've now gone on a decent mini run, winning 7 in a row. Finished 3rd 3x, 4th 1x, and 5th 3x. Didn't need any suckout during this stretch and I had only one desperate spot where I was in there with JJ with less than 3 BBs left. So I feel like I am playing pretty well. Being aggressive when I should and folding hands like AQos when the situation calls for it.

Been stuck in a rut in cash games until the last few days, so hopefully I can turn that profit line up again. Getting a good confidence boost from these DoNs. If I can start winning consistently at cash again, then I'd probably quit these DoNs.

It's a matter of personal preference, but I'd rather drop down a level or two in cash games than play DoNs. I played the latter somewhat conservatively, and even though I came out ahead, it was unexciting poker much of the time. It's also hard to maintain much of an ROI, which means having to play a lot of games for the $ to add up.

Winning streak ended at 8. My AcKc 3 bet shove (raise to 1500+ to his min 200 raise) vs. KdTh got called and he hit 4 diamonds to win. 3 diamonds on the flop then the killer on the river. I was 7th in chips, so had to do it then.

Variance in these is very high. Back to cash now I guess before the luck flips around the other way.

Earlier in another game saw this fish take out 3 guys despite being big underdogs 3x. 69 vs. AA, A3 vs. AQ, AJ vs. AK.

He helped me win without me needing to do anything, but it sucks when fishy luck works against you.

+1


-

After a 12-1 run, I am now 0 for last 6. The latest fiasco had me all in preflop with QQ vs. JJ vs. A7. I ended up with the worst hand and went out 9th. Some slight fav/coin flips didn't go my way, and that was that.

If you're getting it in as a slight fav / coin flipping, you're not playing these right. Then again, coin flips are fun so you get the fun factor which is always +EV.

yeah i play these as part of my BRM efforts, but what i've found is that i would have been better off playing a SnG paying top 3, because it seems that things either go your way and you end up 3rd or better or you take some bad beat or lose flip and go out 6th or 7th


i guess 4th would be the ideal finish, but again with solid players at the table that fully understand the structure of the tourney, you might only get 1 or 2 players that either arent very good or arent very interested and one of them will still probably get lucky, so you won't simply be able to wait it out and win, so you will need some cards and some luck

This is incorrect. If you want me to tell you why just ask and I (or someone else) will but I think you'll be better served reading some of the stuff already linked to ITT and hopefully understanding yourself why DoNs are low variance.

^^^ Correct. DONs are low variance compared to other games which is why they're so popular as BRM builders with recreational players (which also provides a target-rich environment for regulars).

DONs require a different strategy and not everyone has the stomach for them. Personally, I love them. Especially the 6-max DONs, but unfortunately Merge dropped them. Most people play way too tight and can easily be exploited, especially near the bubble and as stacks reach push/fold levels. If you're on a winning stack (top half), avoid risk near the bubble -- if you're getting short, leverage your FE before you get too short and push aggressively until you're over that magic 3k threshold. If you can accumulate and maintain 3K you're a guaranteed win regardless of what anyone else does. OTOH if you're near the bubble with a comfortable but not huge stack, learn to fold big hands like KK/QQ to the the small stack shoves that are usually shoving any ace. Some folks will even fold AA here to avoid the 20% chance of losing a lock on the win.

I first tried DONs when Stars was offering them, and went on like a 20 game winning streak which is probably what set the hook for me. This year I made ~$4k (including RB) in about 3 months 4-tabling 6-max DONs each evening after work, mostly the $30-$80 buy-ins. Sometimes just playing 4 in a session, sometimes 16-20. I just didn't want to put in time and volume post-BF, and DONs were immensely profitable for me given the small amount of volume I was playing.

I hold my own in regular SnGs but for whatever reason I was drawn to DONs and seem to have a knack for them. Hated like hell to see Merge drop the 6-max ones -- after playing 6-max, the 10-max ones are excruciating. I hear Cake still has 6-max, but I always hated Cake back in the day when Sportsbook was there. Maybe I'll signup for a Cake account for CC events and check them out.

... not sure 'but'.. this might be why (alot of players blind down, waiting for a monster.... 'but' realizing that blinds shouldn't be calling wide, you yourself should be shoving wide to maintain a stack with FE)
[quote=dmorris68;1810554
if you're getting short, leverage your FE before you get too short and push aggressively [/quote]
...

What I found so surprising about these is just how tight you have to call on the bubble to avoid making -$EV calls. In Full ring with average sized stacks it is -$EV to call an all-in with KK even if you know your opponent is pushing atc.

I am not saying to just try folding your way into the money. Obviously that is a bad way to go. I mean when it's not necessary to take a chance, don't. Like if you have QK suited and there are a couple of guys about to be out, don't look to tangle with the big stack fish even if you think you're ahead of his range.

Once the stack gets low, one must always look for a chance to shove.

Case in point. Earlier tonight, I was on the brink of elimination, in 6th with only 950 chips left and the blinds at 50/300. In the final hand, I was at UTG+1. BTN had 1900+ and he shoves with A3os. SB had roughly 2900 and he calls him with A7 suited.

Luckily for me, I weaseled into the money as a result. I would probably shove in that spot to if the chips were close, but with the 6th place guy (me) so close to elimination, why take that risk with an easily dominated hand?

Maybe cuz btn figures that SB knows what he's doing? (& will fold a huge % of the time in this spot). idk? (guess he thought wrong tho).

What place is best to finish in a DoN? Well.. it's it's 10player DoN's I'd have to say 'not 6th' (or worse)

I can't stand DON games, so nitty and boring as hell for me.

The newer "fifty Fifty" games seems slightly better but seems a bit of a waste unless you're playing the highest stakes were I see rakeback grinders as the profit margin and "edge" is so small, you don't see more than a few digits in ROI%.

He still had a big enough leeway to wait for me to go out. He was not even fifth in chips at the time. He was either third or fourth. In that situation in a DoN, there's no need to shove and risk exactly what happened.

Don't get me wrong, I like it a lot when others shove their stack when I am about to be out, I just wouldn't do it myself in that same situation.

Lower variance, but likely a lower $ per game, so unless you play a billion of them at once, you may as well not bother.

I don't play DoNs (so I haven't played around w numbers enough to know what is right & what is wrong... but have a little bit of an idea).
Personally I don't see anything wrong with BTN shove... .but the call is real bad imo. ("if" BTN knows that SB will call down way too wide (incorrectly) bein' 'icm dumb', then I guess it's a bad shove??... but if he thinks SB has a clue, I'm pretty sure that shoving is correct there (I could be wrong.. see above).

I would say the shove is a little loose given there is one player with 3BB left, but borderline.
But the call is really bad. I think the $EV calculations would say the SB should fold QQ and maybe even KK.

The call was worse than the shove, I agree. However, I would not shove in that spot in the first place as I said. He took that unnecessary risk and he paid for it.

Both of the players had shown to be loose. That was probably already the 5th or 6th (possibly more) that BTN has had. SB (early big stacker) had called him once with TJ before that and doubled him up.

Again, I don't have a problem with open shoving with A3os from BTN per se, but in that particular situation, it was a bad move.

At the time, I folded and switched over to Facebook for a minute, and was shocked that a few secs later I got a congratulations popup screen. I had to check the HH to see what happened.

Agree on this, i really can´t put much volume so was not for me.


Here is a basic chart that get from 2+2 time back, maybe help to someone.

Equity Chart dons.jpg (http://www.cardschat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40767&d=1320779215)

^ exactly.... 'but' obv. guy in SB has no clue (maybe a more interesting question would be.... what's our shove range in this spot otb with a fish in SB who's icm dumb)

This is the most important and should immediately tell you to not follow their play. If button was solid and knew SB was loose, then the shove was bad. Shoving ranges vastly differ based on calling probabilities of players left to act.

[ ] DoN are high variance
[ ] DoN are high ROI
[x] DoNs can be profitable if you can 12+ table (at least two years ago)

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Wow very nice job. 12 tables at once is hardcore. I only play DoNs as a switch up if I am on a bad run. And so far I am no good at multitabling.

After 106 games of $1 DoN's, I've won $10 lol. With the 2c rakeback per game, my actual profit is a little higher than $10 but it's def not worth the time if I was doing fine at cash.