opinions welcome for this spot...

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Acemeister80

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Hello!

Some feedback on a spot I found mysef in today would be much appreciated...

So I'm in a 68man 3euro mtt on ps. Were about 3 or 4 levels in with 25/50 blinds with a 3k starting stack. I'm on 3.3k and had just moved table so had to play the hand on its own merits.

Picked up JJ in the SB. 5 limpers in to the pot and the button raises to 550 (11BB) and I'm next to act.

Is folding here the right move in general? A call is pretty terrible and any raise might as well be an allin. But iv only invested 25 chips so I can see the benefit in folding. But seeing as I get so attached to pretty hands it never really crossed my mind until after the hand.

I saw the button raise as a squeeze so shoved with my JJ and button calls with AKs. Ended up being a flip (which I lost) but was this too much of a gamble when u can duck out and lose 25 chips?
 
Kenzie 96

Kenzie 96

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Depends on how you see yourself skill wise, I'm prolly waiting for a better spot here, unless I feel I'm way outclassed at the table & may as well get lucky now. You did get it in good, but, prolly better spots down the road.
 
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I'd say a shove is fine, as well as a fold. I wouldn't hate a fold here, especially if you aren't totally comfortable with the feeling at the moment. Sucks you didn't have more info about your table especially the raiser before this spot.

One thing you did get correct is that a call would be a horrible play here. :)
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I would have also suspected a squeeze and would have had a hard time folding.

I agree that calling is just silly, as you don't even get to close the preflop action, and you'll be out of position post flop.

Raising is no good, because you'd need to raise to at least $1,500 or more to be a meaningful raise, which is nearly half your stack, pot committing you to pretty much any flop, so you may as well just shove yourself.

so....back to fold, or shove.

I think that JJ is precisely the hardest hand to have right here. TT I can manage to fold without too much regret.

QQ I probably cannot fold to a suspected squeeze even if I'm not excited about it. I'm only in trouble vs. 2 hands and only flipping vs. AK.

With JJ....I don't know...there are now a few hands that crush us and a few more flips....but it still looks like a squeeze....

I don't know, I don't know. I'm like 50/50. Live, I'd probably tank and try to get a read on the guy...online....? I'm not a player who has a problem folding JJ preflop when the situation dictates it....but like you, I might have jammed here.

I don't think either choice is a major error and may be dependent on your tourney goals and whether or not you feel like you're in the "zone". If I'm playing my A game, I'll be less willing to take flips.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I guess you could exactly min raise which would only be 1/3 your stack.

Jam the flop if no A or K and check fold if there is an A or K.

This way you don't let the AK see all 5 cards so it's not quite a "flip". You'll still lose all your chips to QQ,KK,AA but if they are holding AK you'll still have a workable stack with either 2,100 or 4,600 after the hand.

I don't usually play like that though, it feels too cautious and weak...I won't raise/fold 1/3 my stack unless it is a very strange situation.

But I'm just trying to think of other solutions to this problem.

The other thing to consider, is that with 5 limpers they are probably sharing outs, so your hand is probably even better than it looks.
 
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Acemeister80

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I guess you could exactly min raise which would only be 1/3 your stack.

Jam the flop if no A or K and check fold if there is an A or K.

This way you don't let the AK see all 5 cards so it's not quite a "flip". You'll still lose all your chips to QQ,KK,AA but if they are holding AK you'll still have a workable stack with either 2,100 or 4,600 after the hand.

I don't usually play like that though, it feels too cautious and weak...I won't raise/fold 1/3 my stack unless it is a very strange situation.

But I'm just trying to think of other solutions to this problem.

The other thing to consider, is that with 5 limpers they are probably sharing outs, so your hand is probably even better than it looks.

thanks for the feedback. I thought at the time it was a pretty horrid spot and im glad that seems to be agreed on lol Ive noticed youre a pretty regular poster missjacki and you talk a lot of sense so i appreciate your input.

I did briefly consider the angle you described here but thought the cons outweighed the pros. Id just been moved to the table so my image would have been shot if id min raised a third of my stack and then folded to a shove. Or had to check/fold on a nasty flop.

I think iv come to the conclusion that JJ is the top of the folding range here. I would have folded tens, and called with queens - but those pesky jacks are right on the fence lol Just gonna give up the 25 chips next and pick a better spot. I dont play turbo tournaments so there was really no need to gamble here.
 
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You wouldnt want to put much hope on pocket Jacks. Its not that much of a good hand as you think. Also when you get raised big, whether its pre-flop, flop,turn, before you pay you need to realize exactly what it is that your doing.
Does your hand feel so good to pay that amount of chips?
Will my opponent be forcing me to go all in on the next street even if he doesnt hit?
What pot odds/outs youre getting ( if on any street )
Does your cards feel good enough to go all in for?
You shouldnt really care about early game, except surviving it. You could have easily folded here, and it would have been your best shot. Since you dont really know what your opponent is holding and as I mentioned pocket Jacks is an awfuly bad hand for me. Just because its a face card, people think that getting two of those SoB's is any good, but it is a tricky hand. I would only bet on it to double up if Im being shortstacked and nothing better comes up or if I have a huge advantage over my opponents. On the flop I would only bet if I hit the 3rd jack. If a queen,king or an ace shows, Im done.
 
Arjonius

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For one thing, a squeeze is when you 3bet after an open-raise and one or more calls, not when you raise limpers. This isn't just being picky. If you mis-define what squeezing is, you're likely to use the play inappropriately, at least sometimes.

As for what to do on the hand in question, it mainly depends on what you think the raiser's range is. How likely do you think it is that he's raising 5 limpers with hands that will either fold to a shove or that you'll be a solid favorite against if he calls? And with the blinds still to act, that's seven people he's looking to get through if he actually thinks he's squeezing.

I'm not calling with JJ, and I don't think the min-raise line above is any more appealing, so I'm down to shove or fold. Assuming I don't feel outclassed at this level, I prefer to fold. Better spots will present themselves.
 
sam1chips

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Yeah I personally don't like min-raising either. What's the plan if the button goes all-in? Are you going to min-raise and then fold?

I actually don't mind the shove. With a ton of limpers, the button can be doing this pretty wide (assuming you have no info on them).

Folding is not a bad play either, for the record
 
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fair points all round! valid point on my use of the word "squeeze", steal would have been more appropriate i guess. I just figured he might have seen a lot of weakness with 5 limpers in addition to the SB and BB. It´s not often i see such a passive hand preflop which is why i felt a little stumped and felt the need to come on here for some advice!

I think i´m leaning towards a fold in this sort of spot next time.
 
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Either folding or shoving is fine. I would prefer folding here. My thoughts are its still early and rather find a better spot. If I fight him, I think its a coin flip situation= I suspect his holding AQ or AK. Worse is if hes holding those top pairs. I dont want to put myself in an equal or coinflip situation.
 
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Most people that have commented seem to agree that folding is pretty much 50/50 or the optimal move. Can i ask what difference having QQ would make?

I would have throught that the general consensus with QQ would be to play the hand as i did, by shoving over the big raiser. But there really arent that many hands in the villains range that QQ dominates, but JJ doesnt (other than AQ obv)
 
trolaAa

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Most people that have commented seem to agree that folding is pretty much 50/50 or the optimal move. Can i ask what difference having QQ would make?

I would have throught that the general consensus with QQ would be to play the hand as i did, by shoving over the big raiser. But there really arent that many hands in the villains range that QQ dominates, but JJ doesnt (other than AQ obv)
if you manage to give up so easily from the ladies(QQ) ... what hand do you expect?
 
olliejjc16

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it all depends on your read on the other player, if you think he's weak, raises light and could be trying to squeeze you definitely going to shove over the top, if he seems tight regular, then it'd much closer and i'd probably lean towards a fold
 
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if you manage to give up so easily from the ladies(QQ) ... what hand do you expect?

well thats sort of my point. most are saying JJ is fold (which i kinda agree on), but i cant see QQ being a fold. But QQ doesnt significantly effect ur odds against his range. unless someone can explain otherwise....
 
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With 5 limpers I'm probably folding JJ. I've seen too many call with junk in their hand trying to hit the miracle flop..... and often getting it, especially online.

Dish the $25 and wait for a better hand.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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... I dont play turbo tournaments so there was really no need to gamble here.

This is a good point I forgot to consider: tourney structure

Generally the deeper stacked and slower the tourney the more you should be willing to fold and avoid a flip

The faster the structure the more you should be willing to pull the trigger when you think you are +EV with fold equity
 
Jacki Burkhart

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well thats sort of my point. most are saying JJ is fold (which i kinda agree on), but i cant see QQ being a fold. But QQ doesnt significantly effect ur odds against his range. unless someone can explain otherwise....

Yes... I agree with you. But since it is do dang close with JJ then just that added extra equity of having QQ makes it a profitable shove.... And shoving with the queens I wouldn't be excited to do it, I would just feel it is necessary.... Kind of like splitting 8s in blackjack... Don't love doing it, but it's better than your other options.

As far as evaluating their range and how JJ and QQ fare differently vs. villains range.... It really sucks that it's your first hand at this table and therefore you have no read. When I have no read, I play it safe and assume they are a decent player and basically just assign them my own range for what I would do in their shoes.

In that case, facing 5 limpers in the button I would make that raise with QQ, KK, AA, AK and AQ. I would probably jam with TT or JJ and limp along with 99 or lower and fold AJ. So I'll assign his range QQ+ AK and AQ.

If I plug that range in it goes like this:
JJ = 42.4% to win
QQ = 45.5% to win

Then you add in the dead money, possible fold equity and the off chance they call you with some random weaker hand and it makes the queens just barely profitable...

Just my opinion of course
 
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trent32la

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In that spot folding would be fine...its early on and you just got to that table so you have no real reads...villain's range from that spot is most likely not 22-TT consider how big the iso-raise was....flatting obviously is the worst play you can make there....If he has a hand like AK your flipping and that early on you don't necessarily want to flip for your stack....Conclusion here....fold and wait for a better spot/hand...keep grindin'
 
Arjonius

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well thats sort of my point. most are saying JJ is fold (which i kinda agree on), but i cant see QQ being a fold. But QQ doesnt significantly effect ur odds against his range. unless someone can explain otherwise....
Your thinking isn't consistent. If you accept that QQ is only slightly better against the opponent's range, then how can JJ be a fold, even somewhat reluctantly, and QQ be clear to continue with?

Considering the dead money and allowing for some fold equity, if our EV for shoving JJ isn't enough to do so, then QQ is probably not worth shoving either since the EV is only slightly higher.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Your thinking isn't consistent. If you accept that QQ is only slightly better against the opponent's range, then how can JJ be a fold, even somewhat reluctantly, and QQ be clear to continue with?

Considering the dead money and allowing for some fold equity, if our EV for shoving JJ isn't enough to do so, then QQ is probably not worth shoving either since the EV is only slightly higher.

Fair points. I can't disagree.

I guess my line of thought is that JJ is not a clear fold, it is 50/50 on which play is superior. And QQ (to me) is not a clear call, it is a crying call. I don't think either play, shoving or folding with either hand is a big mistake. For me, that extra 3% chance of winning with QQ nudges me towards calling. I don't claim to be right...that's just my thought or process on the hand.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Your thinking isn't consistent. If you accept that QQ is only slightly better against the opponent's range, then how can JJ be a fold, even somewhat reluctantly, and QQ be clear to continue with?

Considering the dead money and allowing for some fold equity, if our EV for shoving JJ isn't enough to do so, then QQ is probably not worth shoving either since the EV is only slightly higher.

Fair points. I can't disagree.

I guess my line of thought is that JJ is not a clear fold, it is 50/50 on which play is superior. And QQ (to me) is not a clear call, it is a crying call. I don't think either play, shoving or folding with either hand is a big mistake. For me, that extra 3% chance of winning with QQ nudges me towards calling. I don't claim to be right...that's just my thought or process on the hand.
 
BearPlay

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JJ are always a problem for me, but especially in your situation. As some of the previous posters have stated, it's down to either shove or fold. Calling or raising aren't viable options. I would most likely fold and live to fight another day. Best ;)
 
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Yes... I agree with you. But since it is do dang close with JJ then just that added extra equity of having QQ makes it a profitable shove.... And shoving with the queens I wouldn't be excited to do it, I would just feel it is necessary.... Kind of like splitting 8s in blackjack... Don't love doing it, but it's better than your other options.

As far as evaluating their range and how JJ and QQ fare differently vs. villains range.... It really sucks that it's your first hand at this table and therefore you have no read. When I have no read, I play it safe and assume they are a decent player and basically just assign them my own range for what I would do in their shoes.

In that case, facing 5 limpers in the button I would make that raise with QQ, KK, AA, AK and AQ. I would probably jam with TT or JJ and limp along with 99 or lower and fold AJ. So I'll assign his range QQ+ AK and AQ.

If I plug that range in it goes like this:
JJ = 42.4% to win
QQ = 45.5% to win

Then you add in the dead money, possible fold equity and the off chance they call you with some random weaker hand and it makes the queens just barely profitable...

Just my opinion of course

thanks for the breakdown missjacki. an explanation in good solid numbers as to the merits of QQ v JJ helps.

i guess shoving with 65+ BB in a spot where ur flipping at best isnt the best move when ur not invested in the pot beforehand. i had a couple of poker-noob mates railing me at the time and that maybe that affected my decision lol
 
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