Most important tournament skill for cash-game player to learn?

Hi everyone,

Ok. So before BF I was a cash-game only player on PS and managed to turn a reasonable profit at 10nl and was mostly break-even at 25nl. Then Stars (and everyone else - well nearly everyone else for US players) got shut down and I pretty much just stopped playing, stopped visiting the forums, etc.

A couple of weeks ago I deposited a small amout on Carbon Poker, mostly out of boredom one day. So, they have initial depositor freerolls, which, when I played I discovered that I seemed to enjoy the tournament side of things ( I know, as freerolls, these aren't necessarily REAL tournaments, but never-the-less....) and this got me to thinking that I may give the tournament side of things a try for awhile.

Which brings me to my question (finally). As a reasonably proficient, though by no means expert, cash game player, what will be the biggest adjustment and what will I likely need to work on most to make the adjustment to tournament play? I was a full-ring nit, and I do mean nit. I was almost always the tightest guy at any table I sat at, running something like 10-7-2 or so (vpip/pfr/3-bet).

I imagine I'll need to work on that just a little just to stay ahead of the blinds. Need to learn to play more hands, play more speculative hands well, be more aggressive with non-nut or near-nut hands, need to learn when to give-up on a speculative hands that only partially connects. I don't know, just SO many things spring to mind. God, being a FR nit seems easy now - and still usually gets paid-off at the micros. Still I'm looking forward to broadening my horizons, so any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated.

One thing that springs to mind is that I have never read a single book devoted to tournament play, concentrating on cash game books instead. Is HoH still considered THE place to start for aspiring tournament players? Or, has tournament thinking moved on in the modern game?

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reaqd all this and any help, insights, etc you can pass-on to an aspiring tournament player would be greatly appreciated.

-- don't play speculative hands
-- resteal with a wide range vs. late-position openers
-- make TP and get paid

Learn short stack play.

Although HOH is a good place to start to gain a basic understanding of tournament play, the game has evolved alot since the writing of those books.

Try watching some training vids. &/or rail a few players in a handful of tourneys (or watch a handful of tables in same tourney at different stages of tourney.. looking to see how the better players are playing).

Learn to adjust your play for varying stack sizes.

Hey guys,

Thanks for the advice so far. On a related question, how is a US player supposed to put in any kind of volume post BF? I currently play only at Carbon, and I'm just getting started, but it seems like tournies or, more specifically the larger SnG's that I'd be interested in playing take FOREVER to fill.

Forget about any kind of volume play at, say 45-90-180's. Is there a better place to play, volume-wise, for the US player now who is interested in improving his tournament or large-field SnG play?

Ok guys, it's been awhile, so forgive me if I don't get this quote-thing exactly right, but here goes...

Hmmm.... I'm trying to reconcile these two points right now. It was my understanding that in the earlier stages, or anytime I'm fairly deepstacked, that I SHOULD be playing speculative hands, but is there not agreement on this, or is it just because I'm new to tournament play that I should avoid them?

Maybe the disagreement stems for different approaches to tourny play, or maybe it stems from differing definitions of just what comprises a "speculative" hand? Originally I meant hands like SC when IP, suited 1-gappers, small PP when IP, or at least mid to late position. It was my understanding that if you're, say 70-80BB deep, that these are the kinds of hands I should be willing to play v. a normal PFR when I am, or am likely to be IP? Yes? No? Different strokes for different folks?

Again, thanks for reading....(note to self....work on brevity thing ).

how many blinds(ante adjusted) you have and what cards to play with that amt of blinds

-- don't play speculative hands
please define, AKs is still a drawing hand, wouldn't you rather say play tight early and open up in middle rounds in late position?

AK is not a drawing hand.

With 100 BBs you can play a pretty wide range but under 40 BBs small pairs and suited connectors lose a ton of value.

But once you get under 40BB aren't you entering the danger zone of getting blinded out?

No, thats 15 BB

With the increasing blind structure and antes being added? Didn't say you were in the danger zone just getting into it, if blinds increase from 25 to 50 then you are down to 20BB.

Ankle stabbing?

Suited connectors work better to steal with from late position because you flop more equity more often and can double-barrel.

Small pocket pairs work as resteal hands when you have effective resteal stacks from late position vs. late position openers.

AK is the stone-cold nuts.

Sweetest thing I ever learned................you better thank me. Preflop in any, i mean any tournament when you playing small stake. KK ain't shit, QQ JJ.......always a guy call (even all-in) with A rag. Play your KK raise anywhere after middle position. If you are first or soon slow play the damn things. Hit that flop and then kill it.

Just me but my ROI went through the roof.

What would you consider an effective re-steal stack?

Thanks, I'll give that a try. Oh, and Go Clemson FWIW.

15-20 BBs

Ok. Thanks, you've given me someting to think about. How do you handle the situation, though, when you DON'T hit the flop with pocket K-K, which is the most likely result.

You are right, very few small-stakes players are folding A-rag pre in a small tourny. My initial thought, then, is to make them pay for the right to draw at it, but this could just be left-over cash-game thinking.

My concern is if I open-limp from EP, they will likely limp behind with their A-rag as well as any number of other hands. What do I do then if I don't flop a set (the most likely outcome) and they come-alive and start firing post-flop whether it contains an Ace or not?

I mean if the flop has an Ace I have to put them on it since no A-rag is folding pre. Even if the flop doesn't contain an Ace, if they suddenly start betting hard, I'm going to be concerned that they had a small PP and just made a set, or hit some kind of garbage 2 pair, pair plus strong draw, etc.

What do you do in these spots? If you limp-open OOP and don't hit your set, are you then betting at the flop and folding to aggression if an Ace flops? What if no Ace flops? Or are you just check/calling or check/folding? I think my difficulty comes from the fact that I didn't raise pre and so I could literally be up against almost ATC pre. An aggro villain, then, could rep a lot of hands post-flop no matter what hits the board.

I'm not saying any of this is right. I certainly don't have enough experience to make a judgement call like that. I'm just voicing my concerns. What do other, more experienced, tourney players think of this startegy? I mean limp-opening K-K pre from EP?

As usual, thank-you, everyone for your thoughts, ideas, theories. It's all good.

Well for starters as a cash game player you should know that open-limping is a good way spew chips.

As you would in cash KK from ep is an obv raise. Hard to say a general rule but post hands you're not sure about.

Agreed. That was my thought and my concern with this strategy. That being said, as I have said several times in this thread, I'm new to tournaments and am interested in getting various insights from as many different tourny players as possible.

Maybe I'm wrong, but at this point I will not dismiss any strategy out-of-hand if someone takes the time to post it here. I may disagree with it, and may post my concerns about it, as I did above. But, I will at least consider it.

Sorry, no HH to post, as this was a theorhetical hand and I never open-limp K-K, not cash and never in an tourny so far. But, the OP of this theory says it works for him, so I wanted to know what others think. It sounds like you share my concerns.
Thanks

Hi guys,

Ok, I just managed to nit my way to a min cash in the first tournament I've played in a couple of days -- been really busy. Finished something like 20-25th out of about 400. As I feared, overcoming my natural nittiness is going to be a problem.

This time, by the time I realized I was getting really short (about 6-7BB( I had been card-dead the whole tournament)) and planned to just start open-shoving any reasonable hand; it seemed like everyone else at the table realized the same thing and they began shoving from EP (the blind level had just changed and it put a lot of people short). I would have been much more comfortable shoving myself than calling a shove, so I didn't and I ended-up getting really short before I finally shoved.

Initially I thought I was in pretty good position when the level increased as I was in LP at the table and felt I'd have some success with shoving. Problem was no hand ever made it to LP before being shoved and by the time I was in EP much of the table had been eliminated and/or doubled-up, leaving me little chance of having any kind of FE.

I really need to be more aware of table position when the level is about to increase and adjust my play sooner/ more appropriately. I also need to study something to help me get a better grip of the shove/fold portion of the tournament, shoving/calling ranges, range v. range equity, etc. Any ideas on study materials for this sort of thing?

As always, thanks

Why wouldn't you want a guy to call you ALLIN w A-rag when you're holding KK (or QQ JJ.. etc.)?
If this is the sweetest thing you've learned for playing tournaments, I'd have to say I'm REAL CURIOUS as to what the 'other' 'things' are that you've also learned.
remember.... not all advice is 'good advice'

Thanks guys. Obviously I had/have a LOT of concern about open-limping K-K ever. Tourney, cash, whatever. I was highly skeptical of this advice from the beginning and you guys have confirmed my concerns. I wasn't sure OP was serious, but I decided that it was his attempt at serious advice, I think.

Yeah he was serious. Seriously wrong.

One of my strategies early in a MTT is save my chips for later... Stealing the blinds when they are low at the start is just not worth it, thus I only play Sklansky level 1 when in blinds and EP and Sklansky 1 and 2 MP CutOff and Button.

Which brings us to the issue of KK. With that hand, regardless of position, I would raise either 2.5BB if limpers, or about 1/2 pot if raisers. I would not want to scare off the A rag players, and hope they would call, and or re-raise...

You could profitably play a much wider range than that from late position when deep-stacked, though you must take care post-flop not to get drawn into playing a big pot with a mediocre holding. Hit the flop or give it up, basically.

HOH is great for tournament players... solid fundamentals. Sure, tournament thinking has "moved on", but the specific info you get from Harrington in Vol II can increase almost anybody's win rate. I suggest you ready Vol I. Play some. Then read Vol II and you'll see what I mean when you go back to playing.

Thanks, that's pretty much what I've decided to do. I'll prolly buy vol. 1 this weekend and get started. The way I see it, even if the game has "moved-on", you have to start somewhere and this seems to be THE classic starting point for tournament players. Also, I'm not sure that at small-stakes the game will have moved-on much at all - could be wrong though.

Good spot to start but if I were you I'd just go loan it from the library (along with loaning Vol.2 as well). There's other books you'll want to spend $'s on & keep around on the shelves over HOH (ones that you'll read over & over again). If your library doesn't have it on the shelves, ask them for an 'inter-library book loan'.
Yes to read HOH 1 & 2, then maybe grab something like 'Kill Everyone' (Elky edition).

Survival.

Good idea on the library thing. Don't know why I never considered that. If I can manage it, that will help me out lots since there are many poker books I'd like to read, more than I can comfortably afford to just by them all. Thanks for the great tip.

Its in some public libraries for free too.

know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em

know how to spell 'em.

ha you got me WVH ... yeah it's Friday, i'm in stoopid mode