Was this a maniac move on my part?

D

Disciplined

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Level 8 of tournament. 400/800/100
I have 40k chips. Villain has 45k chips.
(he has not been playing very aggressively, and has been getting lucky with a lot of premium pairs)
I'm in middle position with 8dTd. I bet 1600.
Villain in late position raises to 4600. Everyone else folds.
Pot now has 8400. I'm getting 1:2.8, call the 3000. Pot has 11,400.
Flop: 7hThJd
I go all in. Villain calls with QQ.
His QQ prevails.

I really wanted him to fold.
I don't know, i thought my fold equity plus my 9 outs (plus backup plan of rr flush) justified the push.
Was it a complete maniac move on my part?
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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Its an insta- fold pre.

He is not playing agro, and 3 bets vs a player that can cripple him. Is your 8Ts really that good here? He values strong pairs..............

why are you calling??
 
Wolfpack43ACC

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Its an insta- fold pre.

He is not playing agro, and 3 bets vs a player that can cripple him. Is your 8Ts really that good here? He values strong pairs..............

why are you calling??

I don't mind calling pre, you know this guys range is very limited with this re-raise and the info we have gathered. If you smack a flop you're more often than not getting paid off with his AAKKQQ range. If we're not willing to see flops with these hands to 3 bets sometimes depending on opponent, then we're going to get run over in tournaments more often than not because that's too soft of a style of play.

As for the play after the flop, I'm not really sure what you're thinking. We're only in this hand for a smacked flop anything else and we're mucking. If you're trying to even remotely turn your hand into a bluff, the shove after the flop is easily the weakest play you can make. He's probably never folding here, but a check shove looks stronger than an open shove like that. I would have put you on hearts at best because no one in their right mind is going to play a strong hand that way.

Pre flop I have no problem with, post flop you made every wrong move possible. Take note of it, learn from it and apply it to the next situation when it arises.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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From the info we have, his range is limited....to hands that dominate us if we dont smack this flop hard.....

So call - hit - try to get his stack, or call- miss-fold... and what sre you hitting here enough (AND getting his stack) to make a call +ev???

Why call here? I still dont get it.....
 
Wolfpack43ACC

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^ You don't get it because it's clear you and I play 2 different styles of poker. What makes the game so great, no 1 right way to play it. My raise range in tournaments sounds like it might be a little looser than yours, I'm not a player that is going to muck every time you 3 bet me because I'm holding an inferior hand. I want to see flops because I believe I'm a better than average player and can outplay people, trusting my reads/instincts and piecing the puzzle together.

Going back to this hand if the flop comes A910 then we could actually turn our hand into somewhat of a semi bluff with a check raise. We know our opponents range here, and this usually eliminates AA, so now we're looking at KK/QQ/AK and can act accordingly depending on the players actions. He may even shut it down and you get off cheap and get information. You don't have to smack a flop to win this hand, bluffing is part of the game. One of those hands where you can find a way to use not having position to your advantage, especially against a somewhat straight forward player.
 
fletchdad

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I get what you are saying, and I am trying to do the math here, not my specialty.

We call 3000 to win the remaining 35.500 (that is what we now have left, and villain has us covered)

So we need to hit one in 11 to BE, assuming he never folds his hand. The semi bluff you mentioned - (btw, I know bluffing is part of the game, I just felt OP was describing someone who will hardly ever fold a premium, but thanks for the lesson). So semi bluffing will work how often?

Any why do you eliminate AA from his range????? That make so sense at all to me.

I do think if you hit hard you will get stacks in. I just dont know how often a passive player who overplays his premiums is folding, so I am assuming your FE is low to not there, unless you are facing KK-QQ on an A high board.

Maybe someone can offer some math on this type of situation.
 
Zorba

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I'm with fletch here insta fold pre, stop playing rubbish out of position.
 
fletchdad

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I'm with fletch here insta fold pre, stop playing rubbish out of position.



lol, I get so wordy, when economical works just as good.
 
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jsh169

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If your putting him on premium pairs, and expect him to fold to that flop, uhh you probably have another thing coming. Your hand looks really drawy, especially with that board and not made, or that is how I would probably read it on his end.
 
D

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Thank you for the really great feedback. It all makes a lot of sense. I'm clear my post-flop move was a disaster. I was fantasizing that ideal 79J flop we all hope for with 8T. And when I saw 7TJ, it was SO close, I stopped thinking rationally. Also, I get that even calling with 8T was questionable. I did think awhile before calling, and rationalized the almost 1-3 odds made it worth it. I could see going either way with it, especially later in the tournament. But generally lean toward folding it at mid-tournament with this opponent. Thanks again guys for the great discussion.
 
Wolfpack43ACC

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I get what you are saying, and I am trying to do the math here, not my specialty.

We call 3000 to win the remaining 35.500 (that is what we now have left, and villain has us covered)

So we need to hit one in 11 to BE, assuming he never folds his hand. The semi bluff you mentioned - (btw, I know bluffing is part of the game, I just felt OP was describing someone who will hardly ever fold a premium, but thanks for the lesson). So semi bluffing will work how often?

Any why do you eliminate AA from his range????? That make so sense at all to me.

I do think if you hit hard you will get stacks in. I just dont know how often a passive player who overplays his premiums is folding, so I am assuming your FE is low to not there, unless you are facing KK-QQ on an A high board.

Maybe someone can offer some math on this type of situation.

I eliminated AA from his range in my other example where an A high board flops. He could have AA in that scenario but that 3rd ace coming out makes it a little less likely. In the original hand AA was still within his range, I was speaking of my other hand example when I was saying that.

We can discuss the math if someone wants to come along and do that, and while I do know the math it's not the only too I use at the live or virtual felt. There's a level of instinct and feel to my game as well, and I think the better players are able to find a good balance of the two, but I'm never going to be a player that relies strictly on math to make decisions.
 
Wolfpack43ACC

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I'm with fletch here insta fold pre, stop playing rubbish out of position.

So what isn't rubbish, only pairs and AK sooted? 108 is not really that crazy rubbish. It's live against a lot of hands, connects and I won't even mention suited because it's hardly a bump to its value. I feel like through reading some of these posts on the forum lately a lot of you guys play a really select tight range of hands. At some point in a tournament from the middle stages on you're going to have to start opening up your range a little or you're just going to blind down and have to rely on winning a bunch of flips to hang around. Might be an ideal strategy for a min cash, but not for shipping tournaments. We're here to win not cash.
 
Randall McMurphy

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Pre flop raise is okay. Calling the raise is asking for it, the old...

"Well since I invested so much now I might as well..."
 
E

el estafador

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small mistakes preflop, often times lead 2 big mistakes postflop..... fold 108 next time 2 a 3bet preflop, n u wont lose ur whole stack with garbage post flop
 
E

el estafador

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ur not daniel negranu....quit playing gap connectors 2 3bets
 
E

el estafador

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and wolfpack I play on the same network as u do and have won 5 tournys in the last month, u dont have 2 play garbage 2 win... Id rather blind down neday as go out in a 3bet pot with 108 soooooootted... whats the name 4 a loose fish, I dunno but if ur stacking off with 108 thats exactly what you are....
 
Zorba

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So what isn't rubbish, only pairs and AK sooted? 108 is not really that crazy rubbish. It's live against a lot of hands, connects and I won't even mention suited because it's hardly a bump to its value. I feel like through reading some of these posts on the forum lately a lot of you guys play a really select tight range of hands. At some point in a tournament from the middle stages on you're going to have to start opening up your range a little or you're just going to blind down and have to rely on winning a bunch of flips to hang around. Might be an ideal strategy for a min cash, but not for shipping tournaments. We're here to win not cash.
I said to not play that sort of hand out of position, I didn't mean to never play it just be in a late position if your gonna try it, but more importantly fold it to a 3 bet.
 
Wolfpack43ACC

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and wolfpack I play on the same network as u do and have won 5 tournys in the last month, u dont have 2 play garbage 2 win... Id rather blind down neday as go out in a 3bet pot with 108 soooooootted... whats the name 4 a loose fish, I dunno but if ur stacking off with 108 thats exactly what you are....

Lock is not my primary site, it's just one I use. You should probably refrain from posting when your ego is turned on. Not in here to get into a pissing match with you but my results speak for themselves and I'm just trying to help out players that are part of the community I started out in. No one said anything about playing garbage to win so I'd appreciate not summarizing my entire post in such a lazy manner and putting words into my mouth. You clearly have a lot of learning to do about the game of poker, hopefully you'll be more open to strategies that differ from yours in the future. Your post is all over the place to begin with and unfortunately you didn't grasp a word I said. You were too worried about getting your thinly veiled brag in. Get what I mean about the ego? Turn it off, it doesn't work in poker.

3 posts in a 5 minute span, u mad bro?

Zorba I don't agree, savvvy players are going to pick up on these robotic like plays over time and expose them. Good online players pick up on these patterns and it won't take them long to notice that your range is very limited in EP, and only widens in late position. Now if you're a good player and aware of the image you're setting up then we can switch gears on our opponents at different points in the tournament and confuse them, but I've basically skipped level 2 and gone all the way to level 8.
 
Jblocher1

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Why are you playing 8 10 suited out of early position? Why are you calling this tight players raise? Why are you overbet- jamming this board. It's all terrible. I dislike it the whole way through. IMO... There is no analysis to be done here just kick it in pre and save your chips for a better spot. Your raise call is fine if your in late position. But in early position that hand is absolute garbage. Tighten up in early position play hands like that in late position and on the button and maybe call if u think villain is just re raising to get you off a late position bluff. Other than that. 10 8 suited is pretty much crap and should be tossed into the muck pre when in early position
 
Wolfpack43ACC

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^ When did early position, become middle? Like are we never ever calling a tight players raise in a tournament ever without holding one of the 4 premo hands? You guys are just seeing 108 and thinking OMG trash, muck muck muck. If we know every single one of our opponents at the table and their tendencies and I know this might be shocking to some of you but our cards don't matter. We can outplay our opponents regardless. Annette shipped a tournament doing this a long time ago online.
 
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This is horrifically played post flop. You're just asking to be called by an overpair, even AQ/AK, and get stacked. Flatting is fine if V is passive enough for us to expect few c-bets, but if he's c-betting there is 0 reason to play this OOP with 45 BBs behind.
 
fletchdad

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Well, wolfpack, play your cards as you see fit. You are seeming to get irritated that people give you flak about the cards you play, then give flak back that some people dont think it is a good idea to play the same cards. A bad move can be rationalized to death, but it remains a bad move. Playing trash - and, sorry bud, this hand IS trash - OOP is a move you want to do with reason. And just cause "I am good enough to outplay most of you" dont cut it for me.

And taking Annettes example, well, if what I read is correct, she did that experiment a bunch of times, and it did work out...... finally. Daniel can be seen pushing OTR with 6 high, still dont mean it is a play we need to incorporate.

The point of poker is not to show how great we deal with FPS.

But play what you want. By saying this was a good play, I just dont get it.

EDIT. We are facing a passive player who does not seem to be anywhere beyond level 0 thinking. Why in the world do we want to start playing marginal (ok, trashy) hands OOP vs exactly THIS player? In a 3 bet pot?????
 
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I love suited 1 gappers but I love notes more, against an ultra tight player its a fold pre or at least fold post flop.
 
A

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would fold preflop even being an aggressive player
 
Wolfpack43ACC

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Well, wolfpack, play your cards as you see fit. You are seeming to get irritated that people give you flak about the cards you play, then give flak back that some people dont think it is a good idea to play the same cards. A bad move can be rationalized to death, but it remains a bad move. Playing trash - and, sorry bud, this hand IS trash - OOP is a move you want to do with reason. And just cause "I am good enough to outplay most of you" dont cut it for me.

And taking Annettes example, well, if what I read is correct, she did that experiment a bunch of times, and it did work out...... finally. Daniel can be seen pushing OTR with 6 high, still dont mean it is a play we need to incorporate.

The point of poker is not to show how great we deal with FPS.

But play what you want. By saying this was a good play, I just dont get it.

EDIT. We are facing a passive player who does not seem to be anywhere beyond level 0 thinking. Why in the world do we want to start playing marginal (ok, trashy) hands OOP vs exactly THIS player? In a 3 bet pot?????

I think where my line of thinking is getting confused is I'm thinking in a more broad scale of things. Strictly this hand one alone, the majority of the time is not to do anything like this. We've pretty much exhausted the talk though and OP has plenty of opinions to soak on so until next time.
 
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