Hi I played this hand last nite at a live torney teams event at burswwod casino perth and would apreciate some feedback. 60 teams $550 buyin 4 runners left.

Blinds 1500/3000 KK Average stack 33k
Sb ( hero) 45k
bb (villain) 48K
reads: villain is a well known regular who has won a major tornament previous year so some respect is due , even though I consider her a solid player I found her to be alittle fishy at times. Likes to bet the pot if checked to.
preflop hero raises to 7500 with KhKc, Villain calls
flop Ad 9s 2s pot (15k)
hero bets 7500, villain raises to 15000
I think villains range consists of any suited connectors , so might be flushing ( although I would think she would most probably shove the flop ) and Ax (most probable IMO .
Can anyone get away from this hand in this spot considering we have already invested a third of the stack. If I could replay the hand though i would have either shoved pre or shoved the flop and put the decision to my oponent.

What are you hoping to accomplish by betting the flop?

either go all-in preflop or minraise.

You should be shoving here with most hands so that should include some really good ones, too.

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

What are you hoping to accomplish by betting the flop?

Thinking at the time was to put out a bet to see where im at. Foldind here would still leave us with avarage chips, but we have invested a third of the stack ?
Plan was to fold to a shove (as this represents villain most probable range Ax), if called shove any turn card thats not a spade (shows weaknes , i think this signifies that villain doesnt like the A and could be flushing or sitting with smaller pockets than KK) . Did not really consider a raise by the villain as she usually bets big when she bets (ie) bets the pot.
After analizing the hand after the torney, Shove pre looks to be best play as raising here preety much comits us to the hand anyway and leaves us with tough decisions if A flops.

Shoving pre is fine BUT betting to see where you're at is pretty bad.

You should mainly be betting for a couple reasons:
1) For value
2) As a bluff

Betting KK here can't really be for value because there aren't really any worse hands that call.

Betting KK here can't really be a bluff because she never folds anything better.

So after playing it this way preflop you can check/call or ch/fold the flop. I'd ch/call a smallish bet (up to say a little more than 1/2 pot) and ch/fold to a pot size bet or a shove.

If you want to play a flop, and really you should with KK, minraise and bet like 1/3 pot on flop.

As played I think this hand is pretty close given that she's obviously competent. We have no blockers so she has all flush draws in her range and would probably 3-bet most Ax vs. SB.

Originally Posted by baudib1

either go all-in preflop or minraise.

You should be shoving here with most hands so that should include some really good ones, too.

Totally agree with " You should be shoving here with most hands so that should include some really good ones, too."
Whats min raise going to change? by min raising are you suggesting keeping the pot small so that we dont comit ourselves to the hand postflop?
By saying you should be shoving here with most hands I asume you mean at least A10+, 22+, KQ .
This is something Im having alittle bit of trouble with actually. With 6-4 players left I used to shove lighter than this I would be shoving with Ax, K10+ J10s, Qjs plus the above and found myself on the rail more often than not. I then tighten up my range and found that I was winning more and moving up to higher pay spots. As the other players knocked eachother out.
When the stack to pot ratio is so high and everyone is preety much in the same boat with 10-20bb is it worth it to wait for better spots and use a tighter range and let ourselves blind down below 10bb. I mean even with 7bb we have some fold equity left as this represents a large portrion of everyones stack.
In many of the books ive read , the authors suggest to use push/ fold mode with anthing less than 20bb , but if the average is sitting with 15bb ,cant we still make small raises to take the blinds without putting our whole stack on the line when we have an average stack ?

no you should be shoving at least 80% of hands if not 100% anytime it folds to you in the SB unless payouts dramatically change things (in this case it might).

to illustrate

let's say you shove 80% of hands here in the SB.

If BB is calling with top 25% you have around 40% equity.

Keep in mind the vast majority of people will not call anywhere near 25% of the time, but since this is a good player she might.

Let's say you're in this spot 100 times. She folds 75% so you win 337,500 chips in those 75 times.

The 25 times she calls:

you lose 45,000 15 times = 675,000
you win 45,000 10 times = 450,000

you net 121,000.

1.Cant remember exactly but something like this
Payout structure
1 (9k) , 2 (6k ), 3(4k), 4 (2.4k)
Ok so we are shoving 80% of hands from the sb if folded around.
2. Whats our shoving frequency from utg and btn in this case
3. ok so I know little about short handed late play , know any reliable sorces to read up on ?
4. thanks for your time in discussing this post

This is going to be so ICM sensitive you should probably ignore most of what I said before. We should probably be very risk averse.

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

Shoving pre is fine BUT betting to see where you're at is pretty bad.

You should mainly be betting for a couple reasons:
1) For value
2) As a bluff

Betting KK here can't really be for value because there aren't really any worse hands that call.

Betting KK here can't really be a bluff because she never folds anything better.

So after playing it this way preflop you can check/call or ch/fold the flop. I'd ch/call a smallish bet (up to say a little more than 1/2 pot) and ch/fold to a pot size bet or a shove.

Must admit this sounds very sensebil to mé at least, very good point.

And I wouldn't push 80% unless evrybody else is pushing very light, no need to push with bad hands if we get a lot of free walks.

what does a walk have to do with an +EV shove

Originally Posted by kanselau

This is something Im having alittle bit of trouble with actually. With 6-4 players left I used to shove lighter than this I would be shoving with Ax, K10+ J10s, Qjs plus the above and found myself on the rail more often than not. I then tighten up my range and found that I was winning more and moving up to higher pay spots. As the other players knocked eachother out.

Dude - do what works versus your competition. Most books and forum advice do not address this. Keep studying and learning and adding to your bag of tricks - but realize you can also end up up playing over your competition's head and your play ends up getting no respect which can mean unexpected results. Besides playing good solid cards you have to also consider protecting your stack and outlasting the others. This can give some very black and white plays (especially in a cash game) some gray area. Getting to this requires more implentation of making ecellent reads and knowing your competition. A top pro once told me reads were EVERYTHING. I honestly didn't get it at the time. Just treated it like another consideration on the list. But now I know at this point in a tourney - protecting your stack is number 1 priority and reads are EVERYTHING. I know a lot of guys are saying you have to go on the coin flip - but it's just not entirely true, especially if you feel like you are in control of the table. They say you will have to win some coinflips to get in the money - but that's not entirely true if the field is small - like most daily casino tourneys.
They also fail to mention the other side. Yeah, you may have to win some coinflips to run deep, but you may also have to make some big laydowns to stay alive. Stay balanced and practice making reads.
But KK should have been bet much heavier preflop in this case - into the area that it would have/should have been a shove for you. You made it a little bit too easy for Ax to come along.

you want Ax to come along.

Originally Posted by MediaBLITZ

Dude - do what works versus your competition. Most books and forum advice do not address this. Keep studying and learning and adding to your bag of tricks - but realize you can also end up up playing over your competition's head and your play ends up getting no respect which can mean unexpected results. Besides playing good solid cards you have to also consider protecting your stack and outlasting the others. This can give some very black and white plays (especially in a cash game) some gray area. Getting to this requires more implentation of making ecellent reads and knowing your competition. A top pro once told me reads were EVERYTHING. I honestly didn't get it at the time. Just treated it like another consideration on the list. But now I know at this point in a tourney - protecting your stack is number 1 priority and reads are EVERYTHING. I know a lot of guys are saying you have to go on the coin flip - but it's just not entirely true, especially if you feel like you are in control of the table. They say you will have to win some coinflips to get in the money - but that's not entirely true if the field is small - like most daily casino tourneys.
They also fail to mention the other side. Yeah, you may have to win some coinflips to run deep, but you may also have to make some big laydowns to stay alive. Stay balanced and practice making reads.
But KK should have been bet much heavier preflop in this case - into the area that it would have/should have been a shove for you. You made it a little bit too easy for Ax to come along.

I think that you made some good points here I mean if you get a read that you are preety confident with you should go with it and not play by the book as in the example of push/fold ,comitment or because the maths say its the right play .
For example the book says that you shouldnt really fold if you have comited 1/3 of your stack, but what happens if you had equity on the flop you invest 1/3 of your stack and an ugly card falls on the turn, you get a read that your beaten , so fold forget comitment or the maths.
Imo as much as playing good fundemental poker is important we need to adjust to how our oponents are playing witch is why reading our oponents is so important.
As much it is important to be agressive in tornaments to win, I also agree that survival and protecting you chips is being overestimated ( how many times have you been really short , waited patiently , doubled up and won the tornament)

personally if i think i have an edge over the oposition i try to avoid flips, but this is hugely dependant on stack sizes and stage of tornament. if im shortstacked then im happy to flip, because having more chips = being able to use skill to outplay weaker oponents to get more chips( this is where balence is important , protecting chips vs acumilating more chips , more chips= better chance of winning). Also later in the tornament where blind/stack ratio is high i will also be more willing to take a flip , at this stage if you are not prepared to gamble , you may well get eaten by the blinds.

With the KK i was trying to induce action from the bb, I would play KK against Ax all day long , what im questioning is weather i should have
a) shoved , which would look like a steal or semi strong hand, giving my oponent a chance to make a mistake
b) controled the pot alittle better ( like baudib1 suggested) , eg bet smaller pre flop, bet smaller flop , hence giving myself an easier fold if things turned ugly on the flop .

Sounds like you've got it - but I do think protecting your stack is vastly under estimated by most players. Now when you get under 20 BB you do have to realize you just don't have much to protect and do need to act accordingly.
Okay - I did have a similar hand last night - QQ and went 2.5 pre. One guy came along. K72 on the flop and the action is on me. Despite a "scare card" I bet 3/4 pot and he folded. So don't bet more than you should to accomplish your goal. You did this. Now is that person coming over the top of you without an A or even trips? Was there something that happened earlier to lead to believe that they would raise on a flush draw?
BTW, I didnt mean to imply you didn't want Ax to come along - I meant that since you made it easy you kind of have to move that up to the top of their range based on the action after the flop.
what im questioning is weather i should have
a) shoved , which would look like a steal or semi strong hand, giving my oponent a chance to make a mistake
I assume you mean preflop - well you sure do want to provide opportunities for your opponents to make mistakes so if you thought that opportunity existed go for it. Another possibility is limping and if they raise shove over the top. I admit that is a stretch, but it goes along with providing opportunity for mistakes by an opponent.
b) controled the pot alittle better ( like baudib1 suggested) , eg bet smaller pre flop, bet smaller flop , hence giving myself an easier fold if things turned ugly on the flop
Wow - you'll hate the answer - depends on the opponent. But honestly your PF raise was not heavy in the least so going even smaller is a stretch unless you are trying to induce. Your postflop bet was only half the pot - so same goes there. I think you only really have two options, what you did or check. A shove is just not very reasonable.
Your mighty KK hand is going south on you. It sucks but it's a reality. Time to fold. If you know you're beat don't put any more chips in. And it's not just the solo A - she could have easly come along with 99 (though that would probably have been a raise) or 22 or even A9 or A2. She's got you by the short hairs.
But what's missing is what do you suppose your image is to her? Is she reading you as weak for some reason?

Originally Posted by kanselau

I think that you made some good points here I mean if you get a read that you are preety confident with you should go with it and not play by the book as in the example of push/fold ,comitment or because the maths say its the right play .
For example the book says that you shouldnt really fold if you have comited 1/3 of your stack, but what happens if you had equity on the flop you invest 1/3 of your stack and an ugly card falls on the turn, you get a read that your beaten , so fold forget comitment or the maths.
Imo as much as playing good fundemental poker is important we need to adjust to how our oponents are playing witch is why reading our oponents is so important.
As much it is important to be agressive in tornaments to win, I also agree that survival and protecting you chips is being overestimated ( how many times have you been really short , waited patiently , doubled up and won the tornament)

personally if i think i have an edge over the oposition i try to avoid flips, but this is hugely dependant on stack sizes and stage of tornament. if im shortstacked then im happy to flip, because having more chips = being able to use skill to outplay weaker oponents to get more chips( this is where balence is important , protecting chips vs acumilating more chips , more chips= better chance of winning). Also later in the tornament where blind/stack ratio is high i will also be more willing to take a flip , at this stage if you are not prepared to gamble , you may well get eaten by the blinds.

With the KK i was trying to induce action from the bb, I would play KK against Ax all day long , what im questioning is weather i should have
a) shoved , which would look like a steal or semi strong hand, giving my oponent a chance to make a mistake
b) controled the pot alittle better ( like baudib1 suggested) , eg bet smaller pre flop, bet smaller flop , hence giving myself an easier fold if things turned ugly on the flop .

Originally Posted by MediaBLITZ

Sounds like you've got it - but I do think protecting your stack is vastly under estimated by most players. Now when you get under 20 BB you do have to realize you just don't have much to protect and do need to act accordingly.
Okay - I did have a similar hand last night - QQ and went 2.5 pre. One guy came along. K72 on the flop and the action is on me. Despite a "scare card" I bet 3/4 pot and he folded. So don't bet more than you should to accomplish your goal. You did this. Now is that person coming over the top of you without an A or even trips? Was there something that happened earlier to lead to believe that they would raise on a flush draw?
BTW, I didnt mean to imply you didn't want Ax to come along - I meant that since you made it easy you kind of have to move that up to the top of their range based on the action after the flop.
what im questioning is weather i should have
a) shoved , which would look like a steal or semi strong hand, giving my oponent a chance to make a mistake
I assume you mean preflop - well you sure do want to provide opportunities for your opponents to make mistakes so if you thought that opportunity existed go for it. Another possibility is limping and if they raise shove over the top. I admit that is a stretch, but it goes along with providing opportunity for mistakes by an opponent.
b) controled the pot alittle better ( like baudib1 suggested) , eg bet smaller pre flop, bet smaller flop , hence giving myself an easier fold if things turned ugly on the flop
Wow - you'll hate the answer - depends on the opponent. But honestly your PF raise was not heavy in the least so going even smaller is a stretch unless you are trying to induce. Your postflop bet was only half the pot - so same goes there. I think you only really have two options, what you did or check. A shove is just not very reasonable.
Your mighty KK hand is going south on you. It sucks but it's a reality. Time to fold. If you know you're beat don't put any more chips in. And it's not just the solo A - she could have easly come along with 99 (though that would probably have been a raise) or 22 or even A9 or A2. She's got you by the short hairs.
But what's missing is what do you suppose your image is to her? Is she reading you as weak for some reason?

No image is preety strong here , because it was a teams event , every 30 min partners swap , and myself and villain were playing cash table while our partners were playing in the torney. On last break I took a $400 of her with JJ which went down to river , so she knows im not a fish , plus through out the torney I played a solid game. No read on how she usaully plays a flush draw , but In this situation Im thinking shes capable of a shove , not a raise here.
Well I actually folded here as my fealing was that she actually had the A, wich was ok with me, still had almost average chips and a good chance to win , but all this changed when I found out later from my partner who saw her hand from the rail.
Pocket 3s fukn

Pretty standard in my opinion. I try and induce a 3bet jam or spazz (what apparently happened) on the flop instead of shoving just unlucky that it was a high flop. Of course you have to be active for this to work the best but still I'm opening 2.whatever regardless. You have to cbet this flop to get value from hands like 9t or q9 etc (even though villian should never really flat super wide here) and also to protect yourself by balancing your range. (good player will recognize pretty quickly if you always check behind kk or qq on these kind of boards)

C/r is nasty and it's a guessing game. I def woulda folded bc I didn't think she was bad enough to do that with a hand like 33. Like that is terrible. It's a profitable 3b jam or a marginally bad fold pf. To flat and turn it into a bluff with 3rd pair for 1/3 of effect stack is lol bad.

PREFLOP:
I think your 2,5bb raise preflop is fine. Give her the chance to re-shove! You could also min-raise but I like to make it a little bigger oop.

POSTFLOP:

It's a profitable 3b jam or a marginally bad fold pf

Thatīs right!
What do u think is her range here?
I think she never has a flushdraw because she would shove all in. I donīt think she has a strong ace or a pair because she probably would have shoved preflop. So her range for me is polarized to a set, two pair or a bluff (that does obviously not apply to all players). Against the random player I would say it is most likely a bluff. In live tournaments u have to strongly consider timing tells in spots like that!
I would go for the 3bet shove - if she has it .. bonne chance!

how about Ax ? not possible ?

Originally Posted by Sorgenkind1

PREFLOP:
I think your 2,5bb raise preflop is fine. Give her the chance to re-shove! You could also min-raise but I like to make it a little bigger oop.

POSTFLOP:

Thatīs right!
What do u think is her range here?
I think she never has a flushdraw because she would shove all in. I donīt think she has a strong ace or a pair because she probably would have shoved preflop. So her range for me is polarized to a set, two pair or a bluff (that does obviously not apply to all players). Against the random player I would say it is most likely a bluff. In live tournaments u have to strongly consider timing tells in spots like that!
I would go for the 3bet shove - if she has it .. bonne chance!

Originally Posted by Sorgenkind1

PREFLOP:
I think your 2,5bb raise preflop is fine. Give her the chance to re-shove! You could also min-raise but I like to make it a little bigger oop.

I don't mind the 2.5xRaise OOP but yet again you only had a BB of 14.5 more less left so with that a shove is also not bad...Yet as others had stated had you shoved it A) Could've had her fold a weak Ax B)She could've called with worse hands that you had totally crushed, and also we don't want her to fold a weak Ax even if she had a weak Ax cuz how often really are you afraid to get the money A.I pre while holding KK vs Ax? So

POSTFLOP:

What do u think is her range here? This is actually a good point that you bring up here, What was her playing style like, you stated she was a Regular, yet also fishy, so with that, how did she play? Did she usually do this min RR while holding the goods? Or was it as a way to bluff more often, or setup future shoves? Since you both were pretty short I guess her only message was that I'm committed to this hand. So exactly what was her playing tendencies?


I think she never has a flushdraw because she would shove all in.
I'm sry I have to disagree with this, Just assuming that the Villain would do this in this case doesn't seem right at all, I mean I've seen players play there flush draws passively, and I've seen the other types that shove putting all the decision making back on the Raiser, and I've also seen players do this Min RR trying to make there hand look differently then what It may be, Because most players that you dealt with (Just assuming) Shove with there flush draws doesn't necessarily mean that every player shoves with his flush draws


I donīt think she has a strong ace or a pair because she probably would have shoved preflop.

^^^This is a very good point you bring up here, while you both are short, and she only did flat pre rather then RRAI pre you can actually take away alot of the hands out there...I mean we can knockout A8s+Yet we can't say for sure until the O.P tells us about the types of hands that she was seen showing down, and how those hands proceeded to play out...

So her range for me is polarized to a set, two pair or a bluff (that does obviously not apply to all players).

Once again I don't really follow this thinking? I mean (Not being an ass just curious), why exactly would her range be a set out of all possible things, I'd personally think a weak Ax only until, We know more about her playing styles we can't really say sets correct (Unless I'm missing something), While I'd be more inclined to believing only A/rag+bluffs, I myself can't say.

Against the random player I would say it is most likely a bluff.

I really am sry I'm not an ass, I'm just confused, what's the theory behind thinking this is a bluff, while this person is Committed to this hand?

In live tournaments u have to strongly consider timing tells in spots like that!
I would go for the 3bet shove - if she has it .. bonne chance!

While your plan may seem nice It really isn't I mean, there were this many players in this game, and now there's only 4 players remaining or teams (I really do forget), By shoving after coming so close really doesn't add up at all, once again O.P had to think back to previous hands and how she had played them, what she went to show down with? Did she always Min RR flops with the nuts? Did she just flat when she had Ax on the flop?Did she Flat when she had Sets and/or did she Raise A.I with sets/2 pairs/Monsters and Min RR draws while all these are unanswered there's no way to really know what would've been the correct way to deal with the flop


1 thing I can say and WV said it, leading that flop, without knowing how she plays fully wasn't the best Idea...It really didn't serve no purpose at all, while yes she does fold Most of the time when they don't have it, but then there's also the times that they do have it, and then there's plenty of times when they just don't want to give up and this puts you in an awkward spots such as this...While shoving could've gotten rid of this entire mess pre, there's no need to dwell on that now, what you need to figure out was how she played in previous hands, and what she did in those hands then add that up on this flop and that should help you come to a clear cut decision...


Hope I helped in some way

... you only had a BB of 14.5 more less left so with that a shove is also not bad...

A shove is perfectly fine. Depends on your opponent what has more value.

I think she never has a flushdraw because she would shove all in.
I'm sry I have to disagree with this, Just assuming that the Villain would do this in this case doesn't seem right at all, I mean I've seen players play there flush draws passively, and I've seen the other types that shove putting all the decision making back on the Raiser, and I've also seen players do this Min RR trying to make there hand look differently then what It may be

We can never be 100% sure. But even if she has the flush draw.. we have the better hand then

how about Ax ? not possible ?

Thatīs also possible, but I think flat calling is the most common play here on a board like that, because if she raises/shoves and you call her she will be beat most of the time, while if she just flat calls she gives you the chance to continue bluffing (if u were bluffing) or doing something really stupid like valuebetting yourself with KK.. even though a good player would never continue bluffing.

So her range for me is polarized to a set, two pair or a bluff (that does obviously not apply to all players).

Once again I don't really follow this thinking? I mean (Not being an ass just curious), why exactly would her range be a set out of all possible things, I'd personally think a weak Ax ...

I think a lot of players will be raising 2pair or a set because you will never lose value against any hand, but make sure u get the whole stack.

until, We know more about her playing styles we can't really say sets correct

I agree, but you have to assume something (against a random player).

what's the theory behind thinking this is a bluff, while this person is Committed to this hand?

She is only comitted if she has reasonable equity - what she wonīt have with a bluff!
She bets 15k to win 22,5k (probably +antes?) in a tourney with 4 people left. If you tell me you will only continue with an ace, this bluff would be very profitable, donīt you think? Plus she can easily fold to a shove - because she has no equity.

In this hand we have a way-ahead/way-behind situation - if she doesnīt bluff you are beat! There is 37,5k (+antes?) in the middle, what makes it a marginally bad fold for me with KK.