How to go that "extra mile" in larger MTT tournaments? vp$ = higher??

Hi guys, just like some advice. I'm unsure of weather or not it's just standard mtt varience, or if I'm playing bad and just not cutting it at larger field MTTs. I could well just be a bad player, I haven't ruled that out. However, I don't believe I'm much worse than the avg worse player(s) who seem to get deep in MTT's.

For example, most nights I'll give a $1 MTT a shot which usually draws in between 3000-6000 entrants. Often enough I can make the money and quite often have gone to the last 200 for example but still the cashing at these stakes is still very small for a 200th spot finish. I often see at my table so many large stacks who seem to all have like 50% VP$P, they will limp/raise or just play and call/fold to see flops and these guys seem to always have a few who actually reach the final table. At what stage is it time to loosen up? Like seriously? I can't seem to grasp it and like I say I don't know if it's standard varience or not.

I can do well in SnG Mtt's or smaller version MTT's with entrants ranging from 100-500. It's when it gets to the 1000's + I really start to struggle which making a FT. SnG 45/90/180 man MTT's I can like I say, quite often go deep reaching money and recently hitting some final tables in the mix especially if they are not turbos.

So does a standard 300 man MTT range of playing styles totally differ from a 5k entrant tournament? I know when to push in either of them I just don't seem to advance into the top scale of players in the larger tournaments so I'm wondering if tight play can work at these large MTT's..I can seem to do well like I say with small MTT's playing my "normal" game..

Any advice?

Thanks

EDIT: Just to add I've played maybe 200 of these larger MTT styles and the best I've gone is finished 11th in a facebook 10c with 6000k entrants lol. Terrible cash really so I know I did enough in that game but to be honest I did hit some cards too so could be variance in the others more than anything then again is 200+ MTT enough of a sample size?

I also managed to cash in a 1/4 million in like 4000th place lol out of 40k entrants so it can't be "that" bad? Then again I was really struggling when it became the last 7000th left in the game...I was short stacked and so on..

When I have time I will come back and post here since I play loads of these large field mtt's.

Ok thanks, be interested to see this seen as you have pulled of some big scores since I've been here!

I'm also tempted to play this sunday storm tonight but this already has 60k+ entrants, I really don't know if this will be worth - to be honest quite a proportion of my current BR even though I did win the ticket, I can't get tournament dollars. Might try still...lol.

I`d suggest that you don`t worry too much about the size of the large stacks. What matters is the average stack size. If you can sustain an average stack throughout the game, you will reach the final table in 4th or 5th place with chances to win, a very satisfactory position to be in.

Personally, I keep an eye on the average stack size and, if I see myself falling below half of that figure, will loosen up and take shots looking to double up or bust out. I don`t waste my time trying to nurse a small stack and min-cash. There is always another tourney where I can use my time and effort better.

Don't worry about average stack, don't worry about chip leader stack - they are all irrelevant.

The only stack that matters is yours (I'm talking generally here, obviously that isn't the same for sattelites or on the final table/bubble when you have to take ICM into consideration)

I'm grinding at the moment but will write more later

I'm not so much worried about stack sizes as opposed to mine it's more of if the play is different than a SnG MTT? Are the whole playing style different? Obviously a Single table SnG is played different to a MTT but where do you start changing in a MTT in terms of player amounts? I see a good SnG MTT can sometimes nearly go to 5 BB before he shoves, then you watch them in a MTT with an excess of 5000+ entries shoving with 10BB..so I kind of guess you probarly need to be shoving earlier in a larger field tournament?

Going of my comment above I wrote to Egon, what do you think on that? I don't worry about my stack size, I'm happy to sit avg stack or slightly below and still have enough blinds to play a game of poker. It is more of the reasons as to why I really struggle coming into later stages of a MTT?


Basically from what I'm seeing from pro SnG MTT's who also dabble successfully in large MTT's will often shove more lightly in a larger field, is that right or wrong? If so then why is this? Purely based on needing a big stack quick or what

+a billion

IMO this is rather untrue. If your only goal is survival until we're ITM in the tournament then this thinking might not hurt you as much, but in a MTT where our goal is to finish final 3 and not necessarily to sneak into the money, it's very important to make sure we're in the ballpark of the average stack. If our stack falls too far below average we will need to do some serious work to catch back up eventually.

That all being said, to reply to the OP: small MTT strategy and large MTT strategy does indeed differ, but that shouldn't be your focus quite yet unless you have absolutely perfected the smaller MTT strategies. The intricacies of the game are much more difficult to comprehend than the larger concepts of MTT poker are. I suggest keeping things simpler until you have a greater understanding of the game as a whole.

So you think I should give the larger field MTT's a miss then? What do you mean by it shouldn't be my focus yet? I just would of assumed knowing the different principles now rather than trying to find out in the future can only be positives?

With your last sentence with keeping things simpler, again in what context do you mean? Sticking to a particular mode until I master it and not bother with the large field MTT's?

Some examples would be great if you wouldn't mind.

Thanks!

Heheh I feel like Roland - just woke up, wrote a rather long post then accidently hit back! Let's try again...

You would have thought given I'd just written a post I'd have some idea where to start but I can't even remember what I wrote! So let's start with some basics and build on them; when I play my stack, there are probably definable zones where my play changes. Around 10bb is the danger zone - I don't like being below 10bb so I'm shoving a lot when it folds round to me looking to steal the blinds and antes. Below around 17bb is warning zone where I'll start shoving from late position to steal but also look to shove fairly light over late position opens to try and resteal as this can add 4/5bb to your stack each time

So basics covered, why do I think average stack shouldn't matter too much? Firstly, if you work on your game you'll be able to play a short stack far better than 99% of other players at the micros/low stakes. They also rarely know how to adjust properly; some will call far too wide, others will give too much respect and raise fold off ridic stacks, etc. Having a short stack at a final isn't ideal, but it isn't a huge issue because you'll be able to find plenty of +EV spots to get your chips in the middle and add a lot to your stack.

I guess I just struggle to see how it is possible to adapt profitably to 'chase' an average stack so that you don't have to catch up later, as Bwammo put it. If you can look at a spot and say "I can steal profitably here" then you should be stealing there whether you've got an average stack, half average or double average.


Couple of points in general next regarding big MTTs.

First, don't underestimate the huge variance of these tournaments. It is, quite simply, nuts. If you win say a $2 tournament with $1.5k up top, that's 300BIs. Therefore, if you won it once every 300 tournaments you'd break even, even if you didn't cash in any of your other attempts Even pros can easily go on downswings for hundreds of ABIs (average buyins). If you tilt, can't cope with very long sessions, or like your bankroll to always go steadily upwards don't play large field MTTs.

Secondly, how to play them. The best advice I can probably give is steal, steal and steal, especially when you get deep. Use position, abuse tight blinds, resteal over loose opens - just keep accumulating chips whenever you can.

Finally, where to start out. I'd advise starting by playing stuff like 45 man turbos (preferably on Stars where there are antes, unlike Full Tilt) so that you can learn how to play push/fold in end game which is the biggest difference between MTTs (especially large ones and small turbos) vs other game types. Then start playing small field lowest stakes ($1/$2s) as they are low variance, very soft and you'll make a lot of deep runs to give you valuable end game and final table experiences. Then start adding in larger tournaments - there are a lot of micro guarantees on FTP

I think stealing is the key. I've gone through my poker career so far starting out being afraid to steal, then trying and stopping when someone plays back at me to feeling comfortable stealing from several positions, often with real trash. Stealing has made a world of difference to how deep I finish in MTTs. I'm now at that stage where I'm finding I'm getting knocked out fairly deep having got my money in good, as they say. It's annoying, but by adding stealing to my repertoire I'm hoping the more I get deep in tourneys, the more chance I have of making the final table and even winning something. At the end of the day, the final stages of touneys require winning a few coin flips.

First of all - if you have only played 200 the various is so high that is not enough to get a good feel for how you are doing. I play about that many in a month and can go the whole month without a final table.

With that said - I did play a long time with results like yours - could get to the money and bit past it but never or rarely deep enough to get a decent cash.

The differences in now and then - I am not quite as tight as I was in the early stages - but have mainly opened up more in late position still playing relatively tight in middle and early position. There are hands I will limp now - even open limp - that before I was raising or folding with. (in EP and MP) Constantly reading in the forum to never open limp and rarely limp or call with action in front of you had me pretty much never doing it all. There are situations where it can be profitable or you can get out of hands cheaply if you miss the flop.

I used to tighten up for the bubble sooner than I do now - now I have to be really close to tighten up and even then I am not passing up premium opportunities even if it means risking not cashing. And - I often now have enough chips at that point that it is not a concern as often. My goal is no longer to cash - but to make the final table - preferably top 3-5 depending on the payout structure.

Once the bubble passes there are a lot of loose plays from the short stacks and you can take advantage of that to build your stack even more. Like mentioned above I try to keep an eye on the average stack and don't want to get too far below it - I try to stay above it.

I also only play double/deep stack and re-buys. I have never done well at sng's or mtt's that start with 1500 chip stacks. I just find I do not have enough opportunities to build chips before the blinds get too high and I am forced to shove. I also avoid turbos for the same reason. This is a matter of personal preference and individual skill - my skill is better suited for deeper stacks and longer blind levels.

However with that said I am a monster with a short stack lol. My last 1st place I came back from less than 1 bb I think to win it. Last night in the $75k gtd at PS I had less than 2bb's before the bubble and ended up finishing 23rd. That was after building a good stack and then getting back down to 4bb's.

And with stealing - it is important to know who you can steal from. Bwammo has worked with me a lot on that - showing me which stats to look at, evaluating stack sizes, etc.

And last but not least - to get to the final table of any large mtt you have to combine skill with running good and getting some good cards and having your better hands hold up - those latter things you can not control lol.

this is usually my strategy too.

There are good reasons why people say don't limp - raising allows you to c-bet and win dead money a lot of the time, and doesn't mean you are relying on the cards and luck to win pots. It also means that when you do hit a flop hard it's a lot easier to build a pot because your bet sizes can be significantly better. Even only an extra 5 or so bb in the pot pre-flop will make it so much easier to size your bets over 3 streets to get stacks in when deep.

Why? How do you adjust to make sure you stay above it - do you open hands in middle position when slightly below average which you wouldn't do when you are above average? Is it profitable to open in these spots? If so, why aren't you opening these spots when you have got slightly above average?

I will let Bwammo address the limping issue cause he will say it much better than I could.

On the keeping an eye on the average stack thing - It may be different for
others but here is my answer.

I am usually playing 4-6 tables when I am in the early and middle stages of tournaments. For me it is impossible to have total concentration on all of them (however I feel the volume is essential due to the variance of mtt's and my concentration level is good enough to justify the volume). When I notice that I am falling below the average stack I simply focus on that table more to ensure I don't miss any small opportunities that might be borderline and passed when multi-tabling.

I don't play a black and white always open with this specific hand in this specific position strategy. I have a range of hands and then also consider my stack size, the stack size of others in the hand or potentially in the hand, their stats and how they have been playing if I have picked up on that. I put more focus on that table and might go more often with the outside part of that range if my chip stack is becoming jeopardized. There are times you have to take chances in mtt's that you may not have to take at other times.

For the record I am always just stating my opinion which may or may not be what everyone would consider optimal strategy - I am not a professional mtt player so take what I say knowing I am just a reasonably successful recreational player.

In other words not always right.

But why do you try and stay above average stack?

I feel like I have the same issues as stated in the initial post and really want to work on my stealing blinds strategies because I always seem to be short stacked once I get into the money. This is probably a result of playing tighter on the bubble and not even realizing it. I know this is going to be a broad question, but what types of hands are you guys stealing with? Particularly in late position because I'm assuming if you're trying to steal in early or middle position you're not actually stealing because you're going to have a prime hand that you're willing to go all in with.

If you do this until the final table, you'll come in 5th or better. Big enough to exploit others, large enough that the bigger stacks won't exploit*

Or a Egon put it

*For the record I am always just stating my opinion which may or may not be what everyone would consider optimal strategy and is based upon my observations in my games. Closed course, professional driver. Driver carries no cash. Actual mileage may vary, void where prohibited. Any similarity between this disclaimer and one made by a respected mod type person is not coincidental but may not reflect the views of those who know the game better

Thanks for the replies people.

@ Dakota: I've tried all sorts of different aggression rates in MTT's. I've tried being aggresive early stage, with mixed results but didn't like the overall added vareince playing like that. I also tried raising in late position with a different range of hands, again mixed results. I've tried the whole tight is right strtergy which is where I'm at, at the minute, which does well obviously for mid stage and hitting the bubble.

I think my main problem is just after the bubble, I will often find I'm one of the shortest stacks, so I did implant trying to shove and being more aggressive on the bubble to build a stack so when I do hit the money I have avg or big stack. The thing is, the whole 10bb rule that people say you should be shoving with I have had terrible results with, much worse than any other. So many times I would be busting on the bubble because of it when I could of got in the money and still have a smallish but still decent enough size stack to double up and go on a deep run.

I watch many good MTT/SNG mtt players and it's weird because I see lots who won't shove 10bb, they will still keep it quite tight and even seen some "pros" going as little as 4 BB but they make a move.

What is your opinion on the big blind rule? I think this is the main reason for my poor finishes by picking wrong times to shove. Is it really correct to shove for example in late postion with K,Q with 10bb?

Say I pick up A,J in early postion with 10BB left, do you SHOVE? Or how would you peronsally play this hand ? It's too good to give up, I've sometimes folded it before for some reason with 10bb and then go on a hit a FT of a SNG MTT. Other times I will limp and either get shoved on or see a flop and get away with still a few blinds left. Or I shove and most of the time get called and sometimes holds up and other times lose the hand. I've had so many negative results shoving with 10BB when I think I could of held out before longer and go on for a decent run so I'm so unclear on this.

Another good example. People would say with 8-10BB left and you pick up Ace rag this is an easy and good shoving hand yet I have had dreadful results again...is it totally table relevant when and what to shove? If so can you give me some examples please of when too.

Also if you pick up A rag or A,10 and someone shoves on you, are you calling if you are lower than 10BB?

I seem to find waiting till you are maybe 5BB before shoving is better for me...

This is very easy to say this though but the risks are enormous arent they? I can keep an AVG stack for the majoirty of the tournament and even above AVG. However, within say a 20-30min spell you can go from an AVG stack to a massive short stack. It seems you would have to be getting lucky to hit some cards or shoving some really bad hands to hope to steal or double up..

I also play this way when stacks are deep. It is, of course, quite contrary to conventional wisdom for the very good reason that it puts you at risk of being outdrawn by weak hands which would have been chased out by a pre-flop raise. However, if you have good post-flop playing skills (notice the underline) it provides you with more opportunities to outplay the opposition and maximise your edge.

If you notice what Egon said in the original post:
So even if you fall a little behind, ok. When you hit around 1/2 of the average value, now you are "at risk". You could nurse this all the way to the final table, only to bust out on the bubble. His point was why do this? Once you bust out, you go and reg for the next so why not take all that time spent nursing an injured stack and devote it to playing with a healthy one in the next tourney or playing in this tourney with your new healthier stack.

Why would you want to have a shorter stack than most of the rest of the people in the tournament? People love to pick on the shorter stacks, there are opportunities you can't take against bigger stacks, etc etc - again Bwammo has a way with words so gonna make him elaborate more for you cause I suck at saying and am better at playing lol.

I am definitely looking for shove opportunities with only 10bb's - but it isn't so cut and dry. I might shove with 12 or 13 - or it might take 8 in a certain situation. Bwammo has taught me that as long as I can leave myself with about 8-8.5bb's I can make a small min-raise instead of shoving in certain situations.

KQ in late position with 10bb's in an unopened pot is almost always going to be a shove for me - but there might be some situations where I wouldn't - will have to think about that.

With 10bb's in early position I am going to shove AJ I think almost every time - again I will have to think if there would ever be an exception. The blinds are about to hit you so if you min-raise and then miss the flop and fold after the blinds go by you are going to have 2.5 less bb's - not really good. You would have to act in the next round and chances are AJ was your best opportunity. And if there are antes you would be even shorter.

A-rag is not necessarily always a good shove - I am not shoving it often from early or middle position unless I am super short.

It is soooooo situational sometimes. If I were you I would build enough of a bankroll playing the sng's that you can beat to be able to afford a few coaching sessions with Bwammo. (He has coached me on mtt's and I would have to say with some success since all of my good cashes have come since then)

Here is my feeble attempt at advice.

If I am below 10BB and pick up Q,K, and no one opens ahead of me, I am shoving. If someone opens before me, except limping, I am folding.

If I pick up A,J early position with 10 BB I am shoving. I will again fold this if someone raises before I act.

If I have A,rag and, again, no one bets before me, I am shoving.

I have found that, when I have say A,10 or A,rag and someone bets before me. If I cal,l or raise, which is the more likely scenario, I seem to lose these hands more often than not. Most times when someone bets prior to you, they are trying to show some strength, which I would like to avoid. You still have to do your work at the table and know who will bet and fold when you shove.

I have been having recent success doing this, albeit very limited number of games I get into. I may only play in 4 or 5 MTTs a week due to time constraints.

I wish I could play more, Maybe someday

Yeah I totally understand that, I guess the only issue I have with that I once did a grind of around 60 SnG MTT's and played like that and busted like 40 on the bubble and during the session reloading another table was really un-motivating for me and just puts you on a bit of a downer when you feel you are constantly busting near bubbles. Kind of feels you are wasting your time if you know what I mean? I've then done tests by playing very tight games and only a session of like 6 tables and done better than the epic grind..

Maybe that's my problem, I had a tendency to implant this "rule" of 10 BB with near any sort of picture hand regardless of position and especially A,rag in EP and find I'm up against A,K who calls lol.


Ahh, yeaha I get that. Many times I've come a cropper to that. I regret it 2 hands only later when I thought I had more play left but was left a much worse hand with a short stack that gets multiple callers..That helps now, thanks.

Might just try that instead and add the odd MTT in the mix as I enjoy them sometimes. As for coaching, well - I've enquired before with it and he asked my stakes I'm playing and so on. Kind of embarrassed getting a quote for the lowest of low of games lol. I guess I should find out of him exactly how much it would be, whilst I try and talk the wife round it. She really doesn't understand what I mean when I said to her "Can I shell out several hundred £'s for some poker lessons" It's kind of hard which is understandable that I want to pay someone over the internet for a poker lesson when she just think it's a game of luck and just cards lol..will try again after I get a quote.

Thanks for the replies though Dakota, I think those little snipets of advice have helped tremendously.

Rough rules of thumb for shoving with 10BB are below. I've taken these from SnGWiz using all sorts of generalisations (everyone has average looseness, equal stacks, far from bubble, folded to hero), so results may vary...

EP: AJ+

MP: AT+, A9s+, 66+, KJs+

HJ: (without antes): Top 20%
(with antes): ATC

CO: (without antes): Top 42%
(without antes): ATC

BTN: (without antes): Top 46%
(without antes): ATC

SB: ATC

One adjustment I make is that I usually fold the bottom 10-15% of my range in the ATC shoving positions. A lot of players are calling down quite light and you want to give yourself a fair shake if you get called.

It's also amazing how the antes widen your shoving range. Given average (tightish) players, 72o is a profitable shove from LP. But you've got to be *sure* that no-one still to act would call with as much as KQo for instance.

This is what SnGWiz considers an 'average' player given your shove from LP. Calling range:

99+ AQ+ AJs+

44+ A7s+ A6+, KQs (BB)

I became a cropper last night in around 17 SnG MTT's. Hell, I was shoving my 10 BB's with A,K/ A,Q middle pairs etc and getting outdone by lower Aces. I think I bubbled a fair few and just outside the bubble with some others. So frustrating, thankfully the last tournament in the 90man $2.00 I took second for $33.00 so was up slightly at the end of the session. Was disappointed as I had a chance to cash in 5 with decent scores but only ended up cashing two final tables.. I had a few good runs and was quite deep in a few but got very unlucky and busted much sooner than I should of.This brings me back to the 10BB rule.

A,K/A,Q/A,J/A,10 with 12BB/s left in EP, what to do? Say for example 100/150 I sat there pondering as this happened a couple of times ( I ended up shipping to a dissapointing result) However I wondered what was best way to play this? A standard min raise or 3xBB? If so I'm putting in like 25% of my stack hoping to hit the flop - if not then I'm stuck depending on how many callers. A standard C-BET seems a waste doesn't it? If I'm called then I'm really stuck..so do I either

A: Ship it PF
B: Ship the flop regardless
C:??

I'm not talking about nursing a short stack, when have I ever mentioned that? You should be taking every +EV spot to add chips to your stack, and you work out whether these are +EV in relation to your stack size.

I'm still failing to see how you could adjust your game when you are short, and keep only making profitable shoves, to try and catch up with average, because this is something you should be doing anyway?

Sounds more to me like people are avoiding spots with small +EV margins when they are above average which they were take when they are below average, which seems foolish.

No you won't - you could run a monster into a better monster, you could get sucked out on, you could be unable to find a spot to accumulate chips for a long period while all the other short stacks blind down leaving you 9/9, etc etc.

Well I think this is a lot of peoples problem. We shouldnt really be looking for "hands" to shove with we should should be looking for good "spots" to shove. Meaning we see all the factors(stack sizes, table dynamics and such) and that determines if this is our spot not our cards so much.

people making this too complicated.

Just play your stack size, the table dynamics, the other players...and bubbles or other pressure spots where you can abuse people. Each hand is an opportunity to use all that info and make a decision as to whether you fold, play straightforward, or find that it's a great spot to make a move, with or without cards.

A marginal gamble is better to take in a bigger field tourney than a smaller one.

The better the structure the more patient you can be.

I think it boils down to those three.

Great post and sums up what I was trying to say in too many words about how it is not black and white.

He definitely doesn't say you should worry about ave. stack size

You didn't. I was re-quoting Egon's post where he talks about not wanting to nurse a stack. I thought I understood what he meant, but maybe I didn't.

He did not say so specifically, but I don`t think you will find that Bonflizubi`s general views on tournament stategy differ very much from mine or Bwammo`s, judging from previous posts I have read from those two gentlemen.

In the course of a large MTT, skilled players will change gears several times, adjusting their style of play to suit such factors as relative stack sizes, the play of opponents at the table, and the strategic situation in the wider tournament.

In relation to the last of these, one of the signalments which a player might usefully use (and many of us do use) to determine when a gear change would be appropriate is one`s stack size as a proportion of the tournament average. If you are falling a long way below average stack while still in the middle stages of the tournament, you are not on course for a final table finish, and it is only final table finishes which offer a sufficient reward to interest those of us who are volume tournament players.

I just don't think your stack compared to average stack can cause you to play differently, as you will be playing based on your stack size, relative stack sizes, and the reads you have on other players - when you get short you widen your range anyway, regardless of average.

The only time I can see average stacks having any effect on my game is in sattelites when they are crucial.

As for your last sentence, I'm intrigued - do you not think I am a volume tournament player and that I don't seek to final table every tournament I play? In the last two months I've played around 1000 MTTs, with a decent ROI (if I am tooting my own horn a bit)