Have you ever noticed how many donks are on the HPT show?

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BlakeBrown

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I want to join these events because I think even an average player could make money on this show

A HAND THAT I SAW- 3 people in hand, old lady (Last to play) rivers nut straight both players check, she checks as well... Maria Ho says now this is a good check because she knows she will not get any more value... You at least need to try!

I know this is just one example but there are so many things similar to this on every episode
 
Micro Maven

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lol donkaments. That's what you get with 30 minute blind levels in live tourneys. Though I'm sure there are plenty of good pros in these events as well
 
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I'm going to play in one or two HPT events next month - just the low buy-in preliminary events, not the main event.
 
left52side

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I have played several HPT events and they are crazy silly.
I now focus on the WPT circuit events throughout the US.
 
dj11

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I'll go with Maria Ho's take on that particular hand. Not only does the nut straight expect no further action, but by checking she got to see what those other players were playing, a big tell, for free!

What is the HPT ? And where are you watching it?
 
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aznman08

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I'll go with Maria Ho's take on that particular hand. Not only does the nut straight expect no further action, but by checking she got to see what those other players were playing, a big tell, for free!

What is the HPT ? And where are you watching it?

HPT = Heartland poker tour, effectively the WPT but for amateur levels, travels around the US. mostly on some regional cable networks (ie: in Massachusetts, syndicated on NESN)

Every show of this I watch there's usually a bunch of weird plays that make it seem like the whole tournament is a donkfest.
 
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BlakeBrown

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Televised HPT events are generally $1600 buy-in events in the Heartland of America (Although they have them on the coasts occasionally like in California and New York)
-The show is on MAVTV
 
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I want to join these events because I think even an average player could make money on this show

A HAND THAT I SAW- 3 people in hand, old lady (Last to play) rivers nut straight both players check, she checks as well... Maria Ho says now this is a good check because she knows she will not get any more value... You at least need to try!

I know this is just one example but there are so many things similar to this on every episode

Being from Colorado, where the Golden Gates casino is the HPT’s biggest and best stop, I know exactly what you’re talking about. I haven’t even seen the hand you reference but I know the lady that you’re talking about; her name is Carla.

I’m pretty sure it was at that final table that she rivered a Jack with QJo in her hand and a paired Queen on the flop to crack AA from wsop bracelet winner David Baker when they were 6 handed at the final table. Boy, was he pissed, and after watching the hand, one can hardly blame him; ”But, but, I have top pair”. To get beat at that stage, for that amount of money, by a person that has no idea what they are doing has got to sting a little – but he’s got a bracelet so I don’t have too much sympathy. :)

But yeah, the HPT is a challenge just to put up with. Ironically, enough, that lady (Carla) has had lots of success in the HPT and a locally run tournament series called the CPC (Colorado Poker Classic). I can’t possibly explain how, but she’s got at least 3 final tables in the last 18 months – which I suppose just further supports your theory that the HPT is a donk-amnet.
 
rifflemao

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Maria Ho says now this is a good check because she knows she will not get any more value... You at least need to try!

Can't imagine checking behind there. I saw a guy get a 1 round penalty for not betting the nuts in a WSOP circuit event. Dealer called the floor and they made the guy sit out. He was pissed.
 
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Can't imagine checking behind there. I saw a guy get a 1 round penalty for not betting the nuts in a WSOP circuit event. Dealer called the floor and they made the guy sit out. He was pissed.

Yeah, I see that all the time – that said, I hate the rule and think it is total horsesh*t.

The reason behind the rule is the prevention of collusion; however, it is setup as a “thumb rule” so that ill-equipped or possibly overworked floor personal can make quick no-brainer decisions. In reality, the floor man should always be on the lookout for collusion, that’s his job, and in situations where the absence of collusion is obvious and a player just checked the nuts, so be it!

Additionally, a penalty called for a last to act nut check is assigning guilt of collusion to the player that committed the check; after all, it is a “soft-play” and that is what is against the rules because it is consider collusion. We all know that at any other time, if you’re caught in the act of collusion you will be ejected and disbarred immediately and without question; except when you check the nuts on the river, then we’ll just give you a penalty and give you a stern warning. It makes about as much sense as the US tax code.

He paid his money, and there is no pre-requisite or training course that you must attend prior to playing poker. In short, it’s a thumb rule that is absolutely ludicrous. It’s not the only example either – poker is becoming so big it is becoming easier and easier to compare the rule book with the mountains and mountains of incoherent legislation currently on the books; a few more years and you’ll need a attorney to broker your tournament buy-in!

Sorry for going off but it’s sore spot with me!
 
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I know exactly what you two mean! Rifflemao, are you referring to Darvin Moon playing against Joe Cada for title? This is such a rediculous rule... Who is hurt besides the person checking the nuts? In a recent home game I had a full house and my opponent (last to act) had quads, and he checked! Do you think I was upset? No I was glad that I didn't run into a giant cooler!
 
Carl Trooper

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lol donkaments. That's what you get with 30 minute blind levels in live tourneys. Though I'm sure there are plenty of good pros in these events as well

Are you implying 30 minute levels are too short? or too fast?

30 minute levels are a joke. You see about 10-15 hands per level. Real solid poker for live play is always 50min + levels for optimal play.
 
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They design the tournaments so they only last one weekend, but personally if I ever enter this it is to play poker, so I would want to play for as long as I can!
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I'll go with Maria Ho's take on that particular hand. Not only does the nut straight expect no further action, but by checking she got to see what those other players were playing, a big tell, for free!

hmmmm...while I understand what you're saying, I guess I would never be quite THAT positive that I couldn't gain at least a few more chips by betting....always take a free chance to let other players make a mistake.

Although, it is theoretically possible, I have a hard time dreaming up a scenario where seeing their hand would be worth more to me than trying to extract more value with the nuts. We have so few opportunities to hold the stone cold nuts on the river....let's not squander it by being stubbornly "positive they won't call" Truth is, I'm just not that positive about anything on this earth, let alone poker. I've been called by a deuce of clubs on the river when there were 4 clubs out and I held the K clubs.

so, in short, you'll never see me getting a penalty for checking the nuts because it won't happen...unless I have a seizure from the excitement; and in a tonic/clonic state I involuntarily tap the table. (nice little mental image for y'all) :D
 
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Micro Maven

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Are you implying 30 minute levels are too short? or too fast?

30 minute levels are a joke. You see about 10-15 hands per level. Real solid poker for live play is always 50min + levels for optimal play.

I'm agreeing with you. 30m is too short to weed out the bad players. The sad thing is that 30 minutes is actually billed by the casinos near me as some sort of slow or deep structure because they're normally 15-20.
 
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hmmmm...while I understand what you're saying, I guess I would never be quite THAT positive that I couldn't gain at least a few more chips by betting....always take a free chance to let other players make a mistake.

Although, it is theoretically possible, I have a hard time dreaming up a scenario where seeing their hand would be worth more to me than trying to extract more value with the nuts. We have so few opportunities to hold the stone cold nuts on the river....let's not squander it by being stubbornly "positive they won't call" Truth is, I'm just not that positive about anything on this earth, let alone poker. I've been called by a deuce of clubs on the river when there were 4 clubs out and I held the K clubs.

so, in short, you'll never see me getting a penalty for checking the nuts because it won't happen...unless I have a seizure from the excitement; and in a tonic/clonic state I involuntarily tap the table. (nice little mental image for y'all) :D

You’re absolutely right – it is hard to dream up a scenario or reason for checking the nuts. This is where the thumb rule comes from, the idea being that checking the nuts can only mean one thing – collusion!

However, that’s a pretty obtuse point of view, to assume collusion by “soft play” I mean. A player is entitled to play their hand however they choose within the scope of the rulebook and you won’t find this thumb rule in the rulebook; if you want to check the nuts, then check the nuts (I wouldn’t), but it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re guilty of a “soft play”. Additionally, if you’re going to assume collusion, then why isn’t it penalized like other forms of collusion (i.e. ejection)?

The other problem that I have is that it is not in the TDA rulebook. If you had absolutely no experience whatsoever, read the rulebook, posted your buy-in, and sat down at a table you would have no idea that you would receive a penalty if you checked the nuts when last to act; we know of this because we have all seen it happen, not because we read it in the rulebook – that’s a major flaw in and of itself, don’t you think?
 
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I'm agreeing with you. 30m is too short to weed out the bad players. The sad thing is that 30 minutes is actually billed by the casinos near me as some sort of slow or deep structure because they're normally 15-20.

30 minute levels make it pretty slow and deep - outside of a major live tournament you won’t find longer levels. Starting with $35K and 30 minute levels with 100 to 120 players will take 10-12 hours at a minimum.

What are you purposing – a Johnny Moss versus Nick the Greek five month long poker tournament, or just something in between?
 
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30 minute levels make it pretty slow and deep - outside of a major live tournament you won’t find longer levels. Starting with $35K and 30 minute levels with 100 to 120 players will take 10-12 hours at a minimum.

What are you purposing – a Johnny Moss versus Nick the Greek five month long poker tournament, or just something in between?


Most buy ins $500 + from where I play in the North East will be 25k starting stack 40min levels minimum. I made the mistake of playing some with 20k stacks and 30 min levels and its atrocious.

The WSOP has the best structure. Even the 1500 events although starting with 4500 chips, 1 hour levels are huge. And if you make it past a few hours, it becomes a better structured tournament.
 
Micro Maven

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30 minute levels make it pretty slow and deep - outside of a major live tournament you won’t find longer levels. Starting with $35K and 30 minute levels with 100 to 120 players will take 10-12 hours at a minimum.

What are you purposing – a Johnny Moss versus Nick the Greek five month long poker tournament, or just something in between?

I get what you're saying but that's not slow or deep. It simply exposes a major flaw of live, one day tournies. And how many chips you start with doesn't really matter, structure is the important part
 
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I'll go with Maria Ho's take on that particular hand. Not only does the nut straight expect no further action, but by checking she got to see what those other players were playing, a big tell, for free!

What is the HPT ? And where are you watching it?

I thought checking the nuts on the river while your last to act was against the rules in these big name tournaments?
 
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S3mper

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Let’s be careful here; just to be technical, it’s not illegal and you won’t find it the rule book.

That said, I wouldn’t recommend doing it unless you like sitting out :) Paradox? Yes it is!

Actually it is illegal and I believe it is in the rule book
 
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Really - you probably ought to read the rule book before you say something like that!

Trust me - checking the nuts when last to act is not in there. That's why it's stupid!

Go ahead look… I’ll wait!
 
aa88wildbill

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I'll go with Maria Ho's take on that particular hand. Not only does the nut straight expect no further action, but by checking she got to see what those other players were playing, a big tell, for free!

What is the HPT ? And where are you watching it?

+1
 
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