getting to the money, and bubble understacked

Hello,

In the MTT's, I keep getting to the money or the money bubble short stacked (you know, like 12th out of last 15 players or so). Does this mean I am playing to tightly as the money bubble approaches? With like 30 or so big blinds, should I start raising trash hands if I am not getting anything in the top 30% or starting hands? I am prepared to get my chips in with 25bb's, but should I be raising trash hands if necessary to steal blinds and maintain my stack in an effort to stay over 25bb's and not be forced to play for all my chips? I guess my main question would be, Is it ever appropriate to be raising junk hands? Or should I just keep waiting for my spots?

Any response would help greatly

Thanks,

Justin

With the higher blinds and ante's you have to steal when first to act and in good position with ATC. If you are that tight you won't have to do this that often and you should be successful. Pick your spots and soon you will pickup enough blinds to find yourself 5 out 15.

If you are not stealing you are not playing to win.

The larger your stack compared to the others at the table the better it is to steal. The other thing you will notice is you will get called and even raised more when you do have a hand. Its great when you have been stealing blinds and raise from late position with kk's to find someone deciding to re raise you. More time than not you can push and get a call.

Yes, being first to act here is very important. If you're looking to steal then others are looking to do the same thing so when you do get the chance to enter the pot first, you should try to take it. It's an area where my game has certainly improved. A lot of times you'll pick up the blinds and antes uncontested. Other times you'll get played back at but that shouldn't stop you trying to steal again. I'm always surprised at how often people limp from early position and then a late position raise induces the fold.

I can not edit my original post and i thought of something that might be even more effective for you.

I am hesitant to put this out there because i don't want more people doing it.

It sounds like you play tight/aggressive and straight forward. If this is the case there is a better way to steal. If you only play top tier hands and haven't played in a lot of pots the best thing you can do is steal the steal.

I think this could be even more profitable.

Look for the aggressive players stealing. Normally there is at least one and sometimes two. When they make their steal attempt re raise them. Don't go crazy and come way over the top but make your normal i have a hand raise. You don't want to say i know you are on a bluff but i have a hand.
make sure you have position when doing this. It makes it more effective.

The best part is you don't have to get out of your comfort zone as much and the rewards are even better then stealing 2 bb's.

stealer raises 2.5 bb. Pot 4 bb
you raise and take the pot.

Gain 4 bb compared to steal of 1.5 bb. Yes i know ante's play a part here too but it just made the example easier olus the ratio of ante's to blind fluctuate.

Re-stealing is pretty standard. I guarantee there is way more people doing this already than you think there is.

OP: Like the above said, aggression is the key. Sometimes you will go out before the money, but sometimes you will be sitting in the top three as the bubble bursts or the final table approaches.

Personnaly, I won't ship in PF with 25BB. IMO, this is -EV to do that. A standard raise will do the job if you want to steal.

Yes, you need to steal and yes, you need to re-steal. Re-steal is an art and I still have difficulty doing it. Lately, what I suspected as a steal and tried the re-steal turned to be a real raise.

Also, I prefer to do a re-steal with a hand that if I have a call, I'm not in such a bad shape. Restealing with A4os is one of the hand that I hate doing a re-steal with. I prefer do it with 78s than a4os...

I have a simular problem although usually I woulden't class 30bb/s on the bubble as short stacked. You shoulden't be raising trash with 30bb/s in my opinion, widen your range though and in late position you can try open even wider but obviously have to fold if you are raised again. I think they real time to be opening a lot wider than normal with again better than margin hands is around the 20bb/s mar to try and keep you blinds above the 20 mark because it's when you're getting to the 10bb/s stage its all open shove mode.

Again though, it's all situational. If you have tight blinds then for sure open wider if they are happy shovers with a high pencentage of pots you really need to open with slightly stronger hands and if pushed, any A, 10+ I'd be calling with.

I know and i didn't mean to sound like it was ground breaking but i don't want even more of them. I don't mind the stealer's trying to resteal but i hate the rocks that do it. Even one more is too many.

I assume that you are an ABC to TAG player. All good advise in this thread for you to advance your game, but there is only one part of the equation.

I have been having the same trouble as you where I can consitantly get near the bubble but past the bubble and deep in the money is a lot tougher. I play mostly ABC and TAG. Where I have found my weakness to be when I open up to be aggressive mid torney with healthy stack is my post flop play.

As you start to become more aggressive pre-flop trying to steal blinds you will likely find yourself in situations post flop you normally would not be in... catch top pair low kicker, gut str8 draws, low flush draws, mid pair top kicker, ect. It is important to learn to effectivly put your oppents on ranges, build/minumize pot size, and play your hand accordingly.

My advise is open up your pre-flop game and steal in position as suggested above, but realize that you are going to likely need to build a strong post flop game as well in order for you to make the pre-flop aggression work in the long run.

Sadly we don't have positition too often (unless at BTN) but are mostly oop in SB/BB.

Spoiler

Admitting I'm a re-stealer if I spot a spot - it helps getting top hands played agressively getting paid off more too in later stages imo .

Just curious, O.P you state your making it near the Money/Bubble SS, correct? Is this because your playing too tight? Or is it Because your not getting spots to steal..

Look at it like this 8 left until money, and your below average stack, Your in M.P now, I'd suggest for you to wait from this spot usually since you still have alot of players left to act...

Now lets assume your in the H.J/C.O/Buttons, and there's a few limpers in the pot already, I'd say wait once again, for the simple fact that A)You'd actually would require a Hand to actually ship it A.I OTT (Over the Top) of many Limpers Correct? Best Advice I can give you is to actually wait for your spots, Look SS+Pot odds usually= Easy Calls so because of this reason you must pick your spots against players, attack the Blinds, and the button usually if Nobody has limped in Prior to you is all I can suggest

Also, I would like to know what OP's sample size is.

I mean, it could be just a bad run a cards or you're playing way to tight. Only time or hand histories will tell. I would advise checking out the Hand Analysis forums.

In my opinion it's impossible to answer this question without having an idea of how you play & what adjustments you're making on diff. stack sizes in Tournament play. It's just to hard to pin it on one thing or another.

I'd have to disagree. With a 18-20bb stack I would tend to tighten up (generally speaking... all of these 'suggestions' are dependant on differing factors... I mean nothing is black & white). With 30bb's (if situation is good for it.. ie. limited number of resteal stacks to your left & players who know how to aggressively play a resteal-sized stack) you can be raising liberally (or hope to be, lol). On 20bb.. imo it's the opposite. You don't want to be raising on a 20bb stack, getting called (or even getting into a multiway pot) w junk that you're usually not willing to go all the way with (although we can make adjustments for when villain is believing we aren't likely to raise/fold on a 20bb stack.. when we actually might be... one (many)would assume that we wouldn't be though). With 20bb's, you're looking for spots to put the pile in over someone else's raise.

In MY honest opinion - I'd rather steal when I was the dealer or right before the dealer. Going all-in first is going to give too many players an opportunity to call your all-in with a better hand. If you go all-in UTG, you need to have a GREAT hand. You can play worse hands from the button though. Good luck!

Another important thing to keep in mind is that you need to stay patient. The longer you stay in the tourney the more you move up in the money. Let other players take themselves out when you can fold...even if your stack takes a little hit.

A big leak in mtt play is to allow yourself to get too short before making a move or pushing all in, especially near the money. I know most pros say around 20 BBs they are already looking for spots in position to steal or re-steal all in.

If you ever find yourself with 5 big blinds or less than you should def be ashamed of yourself. I say this a lot but I'm looking for the top 3 payouts where the money is big. I want a big win or go home. Min cashes are for the Nits..........

i think you have to be more aggressive early on.you need to build a stack a before the blinds start to hurt near the bubble.if you have an above average stack near the bubble you can be more selective --if need be --around the bubble,waiting for hands while OTHERS get knocked out.if your low on blinds near the bubble your fate is out of your hands,you have to get a hand or a suck-out.once the bubble is burst,i like to up the aggresion in some situations like raising when it is checked to you in late posistion alot with a VERY loose range....keeping in mind of course the stacks behind you.....be much more careful with stacks that can bust you than you would with stacks you dominate.with the smaller stacks try not to make a raise into them unless your willing to play your hand for there whole stack....with the big stacks don't raise them with-out a premium hand you can double with.ALL other hands..........fold.

YEah, sounds like you are playing a bit tight in the late states. Need to open your game up a bit and identify stacks who are playing very tight to steal from.

Try not to let your stack fall below 30big blinds & when the antes kick in you should be trying to steal the blinds from the tighter players.
If you have a tough time finding good steal spots & find yourself falling to 15 or 20 bigblinds, try shoving allin when in the blinds overtop of a stealer.

All-or-nothing, IMHO.

I'd play very loose in the later stages. An average stack is killer when you think about it: how will you 'play the player' when he/she topples you from a mere inclination?

Yeah, I hear you, I made a bad mistake in the Game of Your life, just 5 out of the bubble. Was severely short stacked, but could survive about 10 mor ehands. I was stalling, and Finally picked up KQ suited. I decided to push and the big stack calls with 7,8 off. He then rivers his 8. So, long story short, play close to the bubble and then afterwards u can gamble.

Ya but lets be real, that's a free roll correct-FPP buy-in correct? PPL will do about anything there, and I mean You can't really compare that to a Regular buy-in game where you might have acouple 1ks at stake for 1st? Just my take on it, unless I'm mistaken

I disagree. I believe you should not even be getting to the point where you are severely short stacked. I'd rather take my chance stealing with a small stack and end up a 50/50, then blinding down to a stack that I can't even work with once the bubble pops....

I agree with this. I do not play these godforsaken things much, but too often find If I make it past the bubble, I have no room and go out within the next couple of orbits. To me, it is just as frustrating as going out right before the bubble.

I dunno about what everyone else said, there are some good points about after the bubble burst but the way Ive always thought about it when Im short stacked is that in order to win you must first make the money. Once the bubble burst I usually shove with the first ace I get depending on how short stacked I am. Some of the guys talk about going out early in the cash really isnt that great but to me its a helluva lot better than not cashing at all.

I have the same problem.

Andy Bloch has a good video at the Full Tilt poker Academy called "Tournament Checklist".
Particularly Chapter 4 "Stages of the Tournament".

He suggests that aggressive play near the bubble is advised when facing other players that also are trying just to make the money. This seems obvious but more importantly, you can steal blind with just a minimum raise.

I've tried this when the amount raised is small enough that I'm still in contention for ITM and it does seem to work.

However, if someone is very deep stacked and bullying nearly every pot I'll still just get out of the way.

if u at the money bubble with 25 big bling you should only play AA AK KK AQ AJ in the eraly postion and must be suited also may be unsuited in the late positon if u get any of those and in the late postion you shoud push all in and know you propley pushed with the right hand 90 % of the time unless you get AA vs KK then there is nothin you can do and if u 2 person away of the money i fold to till the end or call min raize to see the flop first

It all depends on the situation too... If you are close to the bubble and the table is tight that is when you play looser and look to steal blinds in position.

If the table is loose then you need to play tighter and pick your spots near the bubble.

You will see it both ways and most of the time it will be a mix of Tight players and Loose players. Key is to try not to get below 20BB, as if you do you will get called with just about anything, play position, and try to be mindfull of opponents stacks.

Stealing is part of the game but you dont really ever want a naked bluff... You always got to be looking for outs and ability to push any little advantage that you might have.

If you are shortstacked near the bubble I could somehow agree.
However I hardly ever will be shortstacked there.
Most of the time I'm out before the bubble but if I reach it most of the times it is with a good stack.
That's because I play agressive long before the bubble with obv more chance to lose my stack, but I know a shortstack at the bubble is worthless.
However, shortstacked or not, if I see my opponents get nitty close to the bubble I'll try to run over the table and steal the hell outof them.

How can you steal when your SS ? I mean you can do it once, Twice depending on Table image, but other then that I mean your asking for a problem..If I'm mistaken in this line of thinking then plz someone correct me .

Strikeseven brings out a good point. Sometimes a Big Stack will call your steal because it wont put such a bad dent in his stack if you loses. The BS will call with anything and get lucky.

That's happened to me a few times - even with a decent hand.

Sry Naruto, being short, stealing is probably not the proper word, but what I mean is, if the table tightens up I'll shove AI almost ATC into players who are not in real trouble yet, but will be if they lose after calling my AI.
I will not do this every hand to give my opponents the idea it's not ATC I'm shoving with, but I will do it often.
If I lose when called, well, I'm out.
But with every blind you pick up you become more dangerous to the others.
To real big stacks I'll be slightly more careful, but still will be shoving light.
Being shortstacked picking up a number of blinds (and antes) or even doubling up, is more important to me than just getting in the money.
Besides, even if you get called, most of the time you're certainly not a big dog.

If pricestructure is very flat though, it's a different story.

i find myself in the same situation as the OP. Make it to the money with average stack and then get unlucky to a big stack caller.

The responces you have got to this thread should keep you thinking for a while.

Ill keep is simple, if you are not willing to committ all your chips to the pot, then dont play it.

Stealing is only effective if you
1. Have the best cards pre-flop, no junk plzzz i beg of you.
2. If you are trying to steal the blinds, make sure its against the weaker opponent, then you might have a chance.