Final table - BIG Blinds - Big stack vs Short stack do you fold or shove?

I am having an interesting disscussion with a good friend about this hand.

I'm in chip lead - in SB - with 9T off against short stack who is on BB.

Do you shove or do you fold or..

The pay structure for the remaining positions is:
270
160
100
80
70
60

That's always a tricky position to be in. It usually boils down to what his play has been like in the last few minutes. You don't want to fold if he's weak, so I'd usually min raise to take the blinds, but if you think he'll shove all in after that then I'd just fold. The blinds are good here, but there's no need to dump chips if you don't have to, so you can always wait for a better spot. Don't forget, you can always just limp, and if you catch the flop then the pot will be cheap enough to bet, or you can get out cheap.

I personally don't like the idea of limping into the BB while they're short stacked, I much prefer the 2.5x Raise on them and if they happen to re-shove and I'm getting 2.5:1 on the call than I'm calling it off or I'm just straight up just shoving to put them in preflop and not even getting fancy about it, but I sure would not ever limp into them that's 100% certain

I think shoving is better at this spot. You are in a good shape even if he has hand like A-x.
Only higher pairs than 99 are bad for you. And if i am at his place i will play any pair and A 10 or better . So its right for u to shove .

I would make him put all his chips in the middle if he wants to see a flop. Depending on how he's been playing, if he's a scared nit he may even fold hands like A3-A6, especially if he's just trying to hang on and ladder up. You have him covered by quite a bit, so it's not like you will be completely cripped if you double him up.

I don't like the limp from the SB or anywhere OOP, to me it implies that you have a speculative hand just like you one you had here and if I have any A or K, two Broadways, or any pair in the BB I'm going to shove. If I think I have a tight image, I may shove with much less, especially if I've seen you limp-folding in the past.

If you raise, you have two ways to win: they fold, or you win at the showdown. If you limp, the only way you can win is at the showdown.

naruto_miu said:

I personally don't like the idea of limping into the BB while they're short stacked, I much prefer the 2.5x Raise on them and if they happen to re-shove and I'm getting 2.5:1 on the call than I'm calling it off or I'm just straight up just shoving to put them in preflop and not even getting fancy about it, but I sure would not ever limp into them that's 100% certain

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The player in the bigblind looks to only have 4 big blinds so I think raising it to 2.5x would be kinda weird.
I think the answer depends on who the player in the bigblind is. I do not think either answer is wrong if you shove or fold in this spot because I cannot see the player in the bigblind folding ever. I sure do not think they would fold as many hands as some have said on here. I do not think you have any chance of them folding so it kinda depends on if you want to gamble with a decent hand like 10-9 and there is lots of extra money in the pot from the blinds and antes.

I would deff shove if not there gonna try and limp in too anything they can you might get unlucky sometimes and go up against pocke kks or something but odds are in this situation you should most deff 100% shove

it kind of depends on how wide you think he is calling and how often you are shoving but mostly this is a pretty easy shove.

Of note, despite being the CL, you are basically shortstacked here. Your relative chip position is not fantastic and your chip utility is very low. If you could basically fold into the top 3 and pick your spots you could fold but that's hardly the case -- pot is over 10% of your stack and folding here is practically like doubling this guy up.

There is 8400 in the pot pre flop, the BB has 13,570 chips left behind.

Unless I'm off with the math part here you can profitably shove any two cards here and should do. If you fold, you give him nearly a complete double up in chips with no risk for him. You have to put in like 5k more for a near 19k pot. You'r getting nearly 4/1 odds so need only 20% equity, T9o has 29% equity vs a TOP 5% calling range of 99+/KQs+/AJs+ and it still be more than profitable so that gives you an idea of how wide you should be shoving. Given of course the times he folds + the times he's much much wider here; so for arguments sake we'll give him a calling range of 30% which is much more realistic; we have like 37% equity vs those hands.

You can shove 100% of your hands here, even the worse 72o here will be break even vs the top of his range I think.

It's 100% push or fold. I'm inclined to lean towards push as I believe his range is actually going to be tighter than it should be (folding random Kx, Qx, etc)...that said, I would guess that ICM dictates a fold.

BB has +3BB total (13k is his total stack) so this a shove all day long imo.

I was at the table as well and after this I hand he even fold until he had like 0.5BB left so I figure you even had foldequity.

ramdeebam said:

There is 8400 in the pot pre flop, the BB has 13,570 chips left behind.

Unless I'm off with the math part here you can profitably shove any two cards here and should do. If you fold, you give him nearly a complete double up in chips with no risk for him. You have to put in like 5k more for a near 19k pot. You'r getting nearly 4/1 odds so need only 20% equity, T9o has 29% equity vs a TOP 5% calling range of 99+/KQs+/AJs+ and it still be more than profitable so that gives you an idea of how wide you should be shoving. Given of course the times he folds + the times he's much much wider here; so for arguments sake we'll give him a calling range of 30% which is much more realistic; we have like 37% equity vs those hands.

You can shove 100% of your hands here, even the worse 72o here will be break even vs the top of his range I think.

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He only had 9k chips behind after posting BB .

You can shove in that situation, according to the Sklansky-Chubukov numbers.

MasterOfDisaster said:

He only had 9k chips behind after posting BB .

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Oh; even easier shove then.

I thought his stack size left was including the BB posted.

you dont have any info about him hand in this spot and this could me blind stealer showe or in most of the time some A or face cards

Thank you all for posting - some great good things to think about.
After reading the posts - in same situation I will really be much more inclined to shove.
But I would like to share my thinking (at that time) as perhaps confirmation or dismissal of it would help me further.

With the fold - (and yes I understand some of the math but I look at the specific situation - we itm - huge blinds - I think it makes a world of a difference to applying the math)
So with the fold - he stays to be the most vulnerable at the table and I remain chip leader and have the button next.
I think with the chips he got he pretty much has to call the shove. If he calls it is a true flip where I can easily become an average stack and he will be near average too - I do not really want to give him that opportunity. I want to make top 2/3 - (look at the payouts). I think it is realistic to expect that I will get a better hand / better opportunity during the next orbit then 9T - AND - I think it is way more likely that I can steal form the average stack players the blinds - as they have a lot more "to lose" as they also aim for top 2/3.

(Just a note - I did finish second - and only UL in HU kept me from first )

call. it's always better to see the flop. Fold - no. You cannot give him so many chips for free.