Early position preflop shove with JAos... bad or good play?

ColinM03 · Sep 6, 2014

Hello.

I was eliminated 27th out of 103 in a $12 buyin tournament. Here is the hand:
Hero is ColinM03

Table #56045069 - Tournament #30646698 Table #4
Starting Hand #2624314649
Start time of hand: 07 Sep 2014 01:26:17
Last Hand #2624314494
Game Type: HOLD'EM
Limit Type: NO LIMIT
Table Type: TOURNAMENT
Money Type: Tournament chips
Blinds are now 500 / 1,000
Button is at seat 5
Seat 1: Claudia187 - 51,165
Seat 2: OggyOne - 31,778
Seat 3: ColinM03 - 11,440
Seat 4: brian27 - 25,965
Seat 5: rngmrg24 - 12,724
Seat 6: thunderbox - 24,252
Seat 7: kjje84 - 18,050
Shuffling Deck
Moving Button to seat 6
Claudia187 posts ante of 125
OggyOne posts ante of 125
ColinM03 posts ante of 125
brian27 posts ante of 125
rngmrg24 posts ante of 125
thunderbox posts ante of 125
kjje84 posts ante of 125
Pot sizes: 875
kjje84 posts small blind (500)
Claudia187 posts big blind (1,000)
Dealing Cards
Dealing [A c][J d] to ColinM03
OggyOne raises to 2,500
ColinM03 raises to 11,315 (all-in)
brian27 has requested more time
brian27 raises to 25,840 (all-in)
rngmrg24 folds
thunderbox folds
kjje84 folds
Claudia187 folds
OggyOne folds
Returning 14,525 to brian27 uncalled
Pot sizes: 27,505
ColinM03 shows [A c][J d]
brian27 shows [K d][A h]
Dealing Flop [5 s][2 h][4 s]
Pot sizes: 27,505
Dealing Turn [Q d]
Pot sizes: 27,505
Dealing River [7 s]
Pot sizes: 27,505
brian27 has High Card: Ace
brian27 wins 27,505 with: High Card: Ace
Seat 1: Claudia187 - 50,040
Seat 2: OggyOne - 29,153
Seat 3: ColinM03 - 0
Seat 4: brian27 - 42,030
Seat 5: rngmrg24 - 12,599
Seat 6: thunderbox - 24,127
Seat 7: kjje84 - 17,425
End of Hand #2624314649

I was around 11x BB and the UTG raised to 2.5k. He had a relatively big stack and was raising a lot of pots pre flop so I guessed my AJos beat most of his wide range.

I shove, but unfortunately someone with AK called after me and knocked me out. As I guessed, the initial raiser folded so he couldn't have been THAT strong.

Was this a bad or good play? I was short stacked but something tells me maybe I could have picked a better spot? I don't think flatting that raise was really an option.

Thoughts?

Mordecoke · Sep 6, 2014

Personally, I think it's a fine play. Given that you had a good read on the opponent who kept opening pots, it seems fine to me.
It's really difficult sometimes to get away with paint cards like that anyway when the blinds are so big.

pcgnome · Sep 7, 2014

Mordecoke said:
Personally, I think it's a fine play. Given that you had a good read on the opponent who kept opening pots, it seems fine to me.
It's really difficult sometimes to get away with paint cards like that anyway when the blinds are so big.

Think about it again...against any random hand you have only 54% equity. If you run into AQ or AK you are in horrible shape, and there's a good chance that you will get more than one caller. Every time you get an extra caller your equity drops 20%. Even in late position on the button it is not uncommon to run into an ace with a higher kicker.
In that spot your better off just making a min-raise, and placing a 1/2 pot bet after the flop if the ace hits. You have to fold when there's a 3-bet and you are OOP. When you shove pre-flop you can't fold if you're cards miss.

ColinM03 · Sep 7, 2014

How can I make a min raise when the raiser before me put 2.5k in the pot?

Are you advocating I min raise his raise preflop, which would mean I put 5k in the pot preflop with 6k behind and willing to fold the flop if no ace hits?

I think you must have missed that first raiser part and are advocating that I'd raise to 2k preflop if the initial guy had not raised... which I probably would have done.

I see you point about equity but I have trouble putting 2k in the pot, folding if there isn't an ace (if there was I would have busted to that AK anyways), and then having the blinds come up within the next 2 hands to sap my stack for another 1.5k+antes unless I ran into a great hand/spot. You also get fold equity by shoving early position.

Just really torn about that spot

pcgnome · Sep 7, 2014

I would have folded pre-flop. I hate getting AJo. It doesn't draw very well. I might shove in late position with AJs with less than 15 BBs if I think that I can get away with stealing the blinds and anties.

NateVest · Sep 7, 2014

Reraise shove preflop utg+1 is also risking a multiway pot, especially when you are short stacked with five people left to act in front of you. This line might be more profitable in position. Definitely think you could have picked a better spot here. I don't love the jam there and I have made similar moves but the line is not as profitable as you may consider it to be. 54% equity is not an ideal percentage with more than ten big blinds in front of you. I would probably like this move more if you were shorter in chips.

dannywho · Sep 9, 2014

I get hands like aj a lot when I'm short stacked and looking to shove, had it both ways sometimes everyone folds sometimes someone wakes up with a hand. Just depends on whether your willing to take the risk or not.

joe777 · Sep 9, 2014

Raise the unraised pot but fold to 3bet.We need big pair with best kicker on the flop.

vallkilla · Sep 9, 2014

ColinM03 said:
Hello.

I was eliminated 27th out of 103 in a $12 buyin tournament. Here is the hand:
Hero is ColinM03

Table #56045069 - Tournament #30646698 Table #4
Starting Hand #2624314649
Start time of hand: 07 Sep 2014 01:26:17
Last Hand #2624314494
Game Type: HOLD'EM
Limit Type: NO LIMIT
Table Type: TOURNAMENT
Money Type: Tournament chips
Blinds are now 500 / 1,000
Button is at seat 5
Seat 1: Claudia187 - 51,165
Seat 2: OggyOne - 31,778
Seat 3: ColinM03 - 11,440
Seat 4: brian27 - 25,965
Seat 5: rngmrg24 - 12,724
Seat 6: thunderbox - 24,252
Seat 7: kjje84 - 18,050
Shuffling Deck
Moving Button to seat 6
Claudia187 posts ante of 125
OggyOne posts ante of 125
ColinM03 posts ante of 125
brian27 posts ante of 125
rngmrg24 posts ante of 125
thunderbox posts ante of 125
kjje84 posts ante of 125
Pot sizes: 875
kjje84 posts small blind (500)
Claudia187 posts big blind (1,000)
Dealing Cards
Dealing [A c][J d] to ColinM03
OggyOne raises to 2,500
ColinM03 raises to 11,315 (all-in)
brian27 has requested more time
brian27 raises to 25,840 (all-in)
rngmrg24 folds
thunderbox folds
kjje84 folds
Claudia187 folds
OggyOne folds
Returning 14,525 to brian27 uncalled
Pot sizes: 27,505
ColinM03 shows [A c][J d]
brian27 shows [K d][A h]
Dealing Flop [5 s][2 h][4 s]
Pot sizes: 27,505
Dealing Turn [Q d]
Pot sizes: 27,505
Dealing River [7 s]
Pot sizes: 27,505
brian27 has High Card: Ace
brian27 wins 27,505 with: High Card: Ace
Seat 1: Claudia187 - 50,040
Seat 2: OggyOne - 29,153
Seat 3: ColinM03 - 0
Seat 4: brian27 - 42,030
Seat 5: rngmrg24 - 12,599
Seat 6: thunderbox - 24,127
Seat 7: kjje84 - 17,425
End of Hand #2624314649

I was around 11x BB and the UTG raised to 2.5k. He had a relatively big stack and was raising a lot of pots pre flop so I guessed my AJos beat most of his wide range.

I shove, but unfortunately someone with AK called after me and knocked me out. As I guessed, the initial raiser folded so he couldn't have been THAT strong.

Was this a bad or good play? I was short stacked but something tells me maybe I could have picked a better spot? I don't think flatting that raise was really an option.

Thoughts?

I think it's totally right play in that case. 11 BBs and if not shoving w AJo then do what? Wait for bullets? So, don't worry about that hand, at least I think you did the right thing.:top:

revskip · Sep 9, 2014

7 handed you figure to have a decent shot to take down the blinds plus the dead money left by the initial raiser if you were right and he was raising light. I'd prefer to have AQ or a PP to make that shove but when you are sitting on just 11 big blinds you have to make a move sooner or later and there is no guarantee that you get a better hand to shove. I like the move but only with the caveat that you felt like you had a very good read on the initial raiser.

PokerFunKid · Sep 9, 2014

Recently watched a video about these kind of situations. If there no raise before you it is a good move to go all in. If theres a raise before you it is discusable and you might also fold. It depends what you think your opponent has. But its hard to know in these situations if he has a ace with a higher kicker. If there's a all in before you, you should fold for sure. But i don't think you did something wrong with shoving here.

teepack · Sep 9, 2014

I think you made a good play. You had the correct read on the first bettor and just ran into a bigger hand later. At that point, you needed a big win. With only 7 players at the table, that made your hand even stronger. Just bad luck for you.

Chanty87 · Sep 15, 2014

Its an iffy one though I think with your read it becomes the right move, of course if its raised and the action is on us we are generally going to fold her but in this situation shoving was the right play.

Lekoo · Sep 16, 2014

You were shortstacked but in early position. You should have waited for better spot later. There is big possibility that some1 had pocket pair or AQ AK..
I personally avoid shoving in late stages from early position. I was busted many times and I think I learned that lesson.

fubarcdn · Sep 16, 2014

In my opinion that is the correct play to make every time.
It is a lot better than waiting for a better hand , which you are unlikely to get and end up getting blinded out and then wondering what if. You had the right read on the original raiser.

Jacki Burkhart · Sep 20, 2014

I think it was the right play BECAUSE the opening raiser seemed to be raising light.

I think given your stack size at a 7 handed table you definitely jam AJ if you're first in and often fold to a raise UNLESS you think they are raising light and you have a little fold equity.

I disagree with the poster who said you have 54% vs a random hand. My equity calculator says you have 62% vs a completely random hand, and facing a top 27% raising range (any ace any pair any 2 Broadways) you still have 54.5%. That's before figuring any fold equity.

And min raise? Why?

No you either fold or jam this spot. Usually is let AJ go vs an early pos raiser except in the case that he may be opening light.

You're in dire straights anyways...gotta make something happen soon or you're just gonna blind out. Can't be folding hands like AJ too often with 11bbs and keys not forget there's 7 players and ANTES!

Well played, better luck next tine

rocksolid124 · Sep 27, 2014

I think it's fine. Very read dependent, but as you said, he had been raising a lot of pots from all positions, so you're right in believing that AJo is ahead of his range. You basically have no fold equity, but you're shoving for value here against his range.

love that omaha · Sep 27, 2014

I was prepared to say awful when I read the title, then considering the specific situation of 11 big blinds I decided to upgrade to OK. Something you may want to consider when this short stacked is the likelihood you are getting called by any two cards. With 20 to 30 big blinds I like to re-shove over opening raises (not with AJ) but with premium hands. With 11 big blinds I would prefer to be the 1st person into the pot - in fact give me 9 10 of diamonds on the button vs AJ in early position with these stack sizes... if you do get called you are dominated less often but the chances of possibly winning the blinds uncontested increases.
Scratch all this if I wake up in the bb with KK you will definitely outflop me and get the double up lol.

love that omaha · Sep 27, 2014

Also, to focus on some of the hands that got you short stacked to begin with, that is usually where a lot more improvement can be made. I see this alot when I play at a charity poker room down the street from where I live - people focus alot of energy and thought on the hand where they were knocked out, but forget the two or three hands where they called off in bad spots or missed opportunities to take down uncontested pots etc.....

hffjd2000 · Sep 28, 2014

I think its bad play irregardless of the result.

There are still players behind you and someone will wake up if he has a decent hand which true happened.

RamdeeBen · Sep 28, 2014

Vs an UTG raise this is a fold.

That said, he has 30bb so quite a big stack, now if this guy is really active then it's fine to shove over.

drugsterr · Sep 28, 2014

with 11 bb i hink u had no other solution there...just unluky

Raisindepth · Sep 28, 2014

I think it's just onconfortable meeting an AK who is in position with you and dominates you 1,5x. I don't know if you could have a good read on the table if you did you might know if it's active play or rather passive, I don't like to get this hand and with your stack I'd rather wait a round more. yes you slip under 10bb but that's still quite playable is it turbo or normal?
If turbo ofcours brainless shove probably reaching bubble etc.

Greats

sabina1511 · Sep 28, 2014

Do an all in on AK, AJ and AQ always pay?

ColinM03 · Sep 28, 2014

sabina1511 said:
Do an all in on AK, AJ and AQ always pay?

No. How is that a relevant question?

Early position preflop shove with JAos... bad or good play?

Was that the correct or incorrect play?

Good move

Bad move

ColinM03

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