Chopping in tournaments and dealing with "pesterers"

Hey guys, first post but I needed to get some good advice.

Anyways I play a lot of live MTTs at the local cardroom (AVG buy in is 100$ and entries are usually somewhere between 30-80.) Now when I get down to the final table chops always start getting brought up with about 5-6 people left. The vast majority of the time I do not like chopping, but there are cases where I will.

This is the situation I was in yesterday that made me want to post.

102$+18$ 6 handed MTT
27 players
Final Table
Payouts: 1st: 1330, 2nd: 800, 3rd:530

With 5 players left they started talking about a chop, I immediately said I didn't want to chop. They were fine with it.

At 4 players left we agreed to pay a bubble. We started 4 handed at 1500/3000/300 and Avg stack was 90K. Me and one other player were about even with avg stacks, there was a bigger stack with about 110k and a shorter stack with like 60k

A chop at this point was $660ish which was brought up and I refused again. This time they weren't as happy about me not agreeing, but gave up after a little bit of trying.

4 handed lasted through 2000/4000/400 and chips were getting passed around the whole time. After 2k/4k/4 was over we had a 10 minute break and we were going into 2500/5000/500 with the avg still at 90K and I was sitting still avg after taking a bad beat and working my stack back up. Through the entire break I was pestered about chopping and I said no. Even the chip leader was bugging me to chop. I still refused and said I would think about it at 3 handed.

2 hands into 2500/5000/500 aces got cracked all in. So now were 3 handed and the onslaught of pestering begins again, now the chop is $890. Guy has the chip lead with somewhere around 170k and is still just telling me to chop. I only have ~15bb so I just chop cause Im tired of hearing about it.

The one guy who got his aces cracked is pissed at me, the other guys are telling me how bad of karma it is blah blah blah even though I just made them both 220$

Anyways, I just want your opinions on chopping and dealing with people like that who just won't stop bugging you about chopping. I really do not like chopping unless it is heads up cause then it equals out anyways. I definitely wouldn't have chopped this one 3 ways if it wasn't for the pestering. My philosophy is that when you make it to the money you are better off going for as much as possible because you don't make it too often.

Thanks for any responses.

Usually when they do a chop, don't they do a chip count and pay you per chip. In a tourney like that I would see no reason to split the only way I would agree to a split there is if I were down to like 4-5 BB's and they offered a split. Other wise I would play it out. It sounds to me like these guys were just tired of playing.
Basically what this mtt boiled down to was a 27 man sng. Your value in sng's is not finishing third when you have a chance to win 13 times your buy in verses 8 times your buy in when you are down to 3 people and already guaranteed 5 times your buy in you must do everything you can to win this. You've already out played 24 players out play 2 more. Do you think Olympic athletes would settle for a combined melted together bronze, silver, gold pile of scrap metal after competing for weeks and training for years? That is just my opinion.

It depends. If you're bg stack take a chip/chop allday along. If you're a short stack don't even think about taking chip/chop. What was the chopping method used?

Actually I've just looked and you said chop was 890 and prize pool was like 2660 meaning you all get equal pay out? If you do it's an easy chop for you and you're a complete idiot if you don't.

IMHO doing a chop that gets you more than 2nd place money is fine. But if you believe that you have a substantial edge over the other players (like your >85% to win) then bypass the chop.

Nobody would have an edge that big with 15BB

^^ I concur.

At the casino I play, they have a no pestering about chopping rule( my words, but thats the gist of it). You can ask but if someone says no, they are not to be bugged to death about it. I think this is as it should be otherwise you end up with it slowing the whole tourney down just so people can discuss a chop. I will always chop and some people will disagree with it and thats fine. My thought is, in a tourney, just getting into the money is nice and if you can get a chop that is either even or close to even, then take it. It may not be as much as you wanted, but its better than not cashing at all.

Sitting w 14bb, I'd take the 3-way even chop all day long (unless I've got Mr.UberNitski who is folding constantly). I mean you have 14bb... take the $'s.

14 bb's is 70,000 chips. But besides that you enter a tournament to win not to get to the finish line, stop, and talk about tying.

"Most people give up just when they're about to achieve success. They quit on the one yard line. They give up at the last minute of the game, one foot from a winning touchdown."
H.Ross Perot

"Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense"
Winston Churchill

"Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."
Thomas Alva Edison

"Champions don't quit."
Mike Tyson

"A lot of people quit looking for work as soon as they find a job."
Zig Ziglar

"Defeat doesn't finish a man, quit does. A man is not finished when he's defeated. He's finished when he quits."
Richard M. Nixon

Well

A) it's irrelevant how many chips 14BB is, it could be 1000 or 70000, it makes absolute no difference.
B)We're getting offered well above what ICM predicts despite being the shortstack, you'd have to be an absolute moron not to take a deal at this point. It's not giving up, it's being intelligent. If you don't like maximinising ev sure carry on and go ftw. If you do like maximising ev snap deal and it's not even close.

That word is used much too often on here.I stated my opinion, only to be called a moron. If you really want to call other members moron's you should really check what you write first. Someone that is so free to call someone else a moron should at least be able to spell. Again just my opinion.
And once again I play to win.

if you have an ipod/pad get a icm calculator

i agree with what others said, if you have an edge do not chop, unless they are will to give you more than icm would dictate

happy holidays,

t

I've used these two before -

"Sorry guys, I made my mind up driving in today that I was not going to chop. So it's not personal, I just need a big cash to make up for the car repairs I just had to pay for."

or (same theme)

"Sorry guys, I made my mind up driving in today that I was not going to chop. I really need to get some short handed experience."

It shut them up.

No I said if you think it's advisable to play in the hope that you win when you're a shortstack being offered an even split you are moronic. Although judging by your last sentence here you think it's a good idea to ignore ICM and carry on regardless, if you enjoy not being a good poker player, carry on. You'll always have people who understand trying to explain why the way you think you should play is moronic. Next time you play a SnG and you reach the bubble just carry on going for the win whilst someone like me adjusts my game based on stack size and realises it isn't always a good idea to play for the win and flip for stacks. Who do you think will be more profitable after a few thousand games? The person who knows how to play or the person who plays like a drooler?

Also despite being a moron in poker I'm pretty sure you knew the first maximise was a typo. Even if I didn't know how it was spelt it was irrelevant to the argument and I don't know how that villifies your 'play to win' attitude other than using it as a diverting tactic from the issue at hand.

I'm telling you the correct way to play if you were in this spot, it is not an opinion as there is nothing to debate about it. Your opinion of what to do in this spot is categorically wrong. To defend the way you advocate playing here is ridiculous at best, showing a complete lack of knowledge at worst. There is alot worse things I could (and would if the forum didn't asterisk certain words) have called you that would sum up the idiocy of what you advocate. People visit this poker forum for a serious discussion and what to do in certain spots, you'd be better off staying away from threads if you're just going to post advice that is wrong.

It's no skin off my nose if you make incorrect plays, just don't tell other members to play a certain way when it is wrong.

If you think using words like moronic and idiotic helps players improve there game then you have a lot to learn about people. As far as playing for a split or going for the win that is a decision a person with a winning mentality would have no problem making. You pretending to know what ICM means and when it is used that's a whole different subject.
Do me and yourself a favor and refrain from quoting on my replies or posts
Thank You

You really ought to stop misusing that phrase. Do you actually know what it means? There are very few (if any) situations that it would be an applicable word to use in poker analysis, so it makes somebody appear ignorant when they keep misusing it. Misguided perhaps, -EV maybe or arguably foolish, but certainly not moronic. Also using emotive words like that stops it being constructive advice and turns it into a personal attack, so any wise words potentially end up being overlooked.

epic quotes CC, thanks.

I have a winning mentality and a pretty good pedigree in both football and athletics where I ran for my county, a sport where winning is everything. I think my problem is not the lack of a winning mentality but having a sound understanding of maths and not being a drooler who loves pissing my equity up the wall. A good player accepts this deal. A moron like you rejects it on the basis of having a winning mentality. As I said earlier who wins more long term? The person who knows how to play poker and win the maximum or the person with an IQ that leaves them bordering on mental retardation?

I know exactly how ICM works and this is a spot we use it in. You've already made yourself look stupid enough by saying go for the win. Are you seriously telling me you don't understand why ICM is being used in this spot? If I didn't know what ICM meant I wouldn't have mentioned it in terms of dealing in this spot?

As far as I'm concerned you're an idiotic prick who has no idea what he is on about and your sole purpose in this thread has been to give the worst possible advice.

As for the bit highlighted, I couldn't care less about you improving your game, you've shown you're beyond help. I would say learn how to use correct grammar before you start pulling people up on a typo though. A typo is acceptable, not knowing when to use their/there is just highlighting your lack of intellect even further.

They might be epic quotes KD, but it still doesn't necessarily imply that declining a chop in those circumstances is +EV. A lot of those quotes are from politicians, and we know how reliable their promises are...

EDIT: If you think using words like moronic and idiotic helps players improve their game, BlueNowhere, then you have a lot to learn about people.

idk... seemed rather moronic to me too
(def. #1 ??)

I suppose it'd depend upon the motivation for using the word & yah.. I doubt cali will be open to learning just what blue had to say in their post (even though it was spot on)

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ok, hang on..............................

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er, no offence FF, but all I said was that they are epic quotes, in general, I didnt mean in relation to this thread. Im chopping every time for OPs post.

Yes I know what it means and it was the only word I could think of to describe the utter stupidity of what calicard has said so far in this thread. What other word can you use to describe somebody who has repeatedly said play for the win despite it being stated that this is catergoricaly wrong. It's not a case of he thought one thing but he was wrong. He stated something that was wrong and repeated to state it despite being told he is wrong.

It wasn't meant to be constructive advice, I realsied constructuve advice was pointless when calicard insisted that you should play to win despite that being the worst advice possible and even having it pointed out to him.

The point is that people come here looking for constructive advice, PO, not to be insulted. Why would they come here in the first place, if they didn't want to learn? You have visited a lot of poker forums over the years, and so have I. The big difference with CC is that it's a friendly forum, and I would like it to stay that way. None taken, and me too.There was a at the end of my comment, btw.

It is probably a good spot to go ahead and chop here, but if you don't want to, don't. There is no rule mandating you to chop. They were just trying to make you feel bad for not chopping. Looks like you did it right, waited for the good time to chop and did. If you never chopped, then it woulda still been the right way in my opinion, probably bad in terms of ev, but still right. Grats on the profit =]

I can understand where you're coming from, and the reason for your frustration.

good point.
and FF, sorry for bolded, I didnt see the at the end, my bad(been awake 28 hours now, so lagging a bit) merry xmas anyway ff.

moron is a horrible word, and was uncalled for, but luckjilly I dont see it used too often at CC, we are a friendly site, as FF stated, compared to many others, 2p2 anyone????

I originally stated anyone who rejected the chop would be an idiot. calicard then entered the fray saying he would go for the win. I then told him why we take the chop and only a moron would turn it down. He then says he would turn it down anyway which would imply he was a moron. He then confirmed that with his 'winning mentality' speech. I posted a perfectly reasonable comment which told the OP what the reason for dealing would be and then calicard decides to come in and give advice that can in no way be construed as constructive.

'moronic' < meant to describe the action (not as a label of said person).

Just as in > if other two players offered to even chop while sitting with 20-25bb when one player was sitting with 4-5bb's is also 'moronic'

Didn't say cali is a moron at all.
Perhaps 'misguided' but with good intentions maybe.

baudib1 has been chucking the word around fairly liberally recently, too. Not a trend that I welcome.

Never made a deal so far, always go for the win. Maybe in a turbo I would think about it or if everyone is short.

I guess where I come from the word moron is used fairly regularly and I don't think anyone really has a problem with its use.

+1,

I agree with most of the above.... It seems if one wants to get one's point across, one could make it without calling others names such as moron or by implying that what they posted is moronic, stupid, silly etc. Say that you think that they are wrong, or that you disagree with them, but no need to toss in words that are at rude and not helpful to the discussion. Nothing wrong with being blunt, but I am sure that we can do this in a much more productive way.