chip stack size in tournaments

#2 18th September 2007, 4:02 AM

I usually think of M in terms of a full table. At 6 handed, your effective M is actually less here.

Some excellent points!

#3 18th September 2007, 4:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skoldpadda

I usually think of M in terms of a full table. At 6 handed, your effective M is actually less here.

Some excellent points!

oops, you're right . But, I think the main points still stand...

#4 18th September 2007, 4:51 AM

Never come across the term "short stack bully" before. I like it in this instance though: the bottom three players might be short, but even the chip leader isn't in a position to enforce Harrington's 10-to-1 rule.

#5 18th September 2007, 5:35 AM

AG ,I like it , but I'm not sure you practice what you preach , lol, maybe you know how I play and can play me different but you have always still stolen my blind even when I'm short stacked , you have also called my all in with a marginal hand ,(possibly doubling me up ) and got on others for not calling me when I'm in shove mode. please explain yourself.

#6 18th September 2007, 7:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymfc

AG ,I like it , but I'm not sure you practice what you preach , lol, maybe you know how I play and can play me different but you have always still stolen my blind even when I'm short stacked , you have also called my all in with a marginal hand ,(possibly doubling me up ) and got on others for not calling me when I'm in shove mode. please explain yourself.

Well, in the above tournament I DID play very tight during this period. You'll have to post the HHs for me to comment-- maybe I had a big hand when you thought I was stealing (?) or maybe I just read you as playing too tight at the time (?); maybe our stack sizes were such that I could make a marginal call on you (?)-- I'd have to see the exact situations to comment.

#7 19th September 2007, 7:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skoldpadda

I usually think of M in terms of a full table. At 6 handed, your effective M is actually less here.

Some excellent points!

Just thinking about this a bit more-- it goes to the point that after chips consolidate into fewer players PLUS we go go to a nine handed final table, then everyone will then have "enough stack to fold", and we can re-open our aggression level.

#8 19th September 2007, 8:08 AM

One thing that I think is important to factor in with regards to play style at this point is where on the table the short stacks are. Lets say you are middle stack and have the 2 small ones on your right, and the 2 big ones on your left. In this situation you can still play on the LAGGY side assuming the smalls fold to you. If on the other hand, the small stacks are on your left, you really have to tighten up or be prepared to race as they will shove with less than premium hands.

#9 19th September 2007, 6:15 PM

Good points, i just experiensed this in a home poker tournament with 9 people, when i was a good chip lead from start, but we played with re-buy and when 3 players where short stack and the rest only middle stack it lead to shoves almost every hand, because they was going to rebuy if they busted. It was tricky and i was forced to fold almost every hand 4 an hour

#10 19th September 2007, 7:51 PM

AG have you read PNL yet?

#11 19th September 2007, 9:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanquish

AG have you read PNL yet?

Not yet, I just got it.

#12 19th September 2007, 9:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliengenius

Not yet, I just got it.

I've heard that it talks about SPR (stack to pot ratio) and how much it affects decisions, but perhaps that does not relate as much to tournaments as cash games in the way it talks about it.

#13 20th September 2007, 5:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanquish

I've heard that it talks about SPR (stack to pot ratio) and how much it affects decisions, but perhaps that does not relate as much to tournaments as cash games in the way it talks about it.

Some of the ideas are applicable, even if PNL is addressing the cash game. Pot to stack ratio sounds like it is concerned with having plan for your hand-- if you run out of money to bet significantly on each street because of early larger bets it could be a mistake (?)

#14 24th October 2007, 7:34 AM

Without even thinking about it, I've been using these ideas a ton over all of the MTTs I've played recently, which makes me feel that the thread needs to be bumped so more people could read it

#15 24th October 2007, 9:40 PM

I think this needed a jazzier title like "Lag 'em or Tag 'em?" or something...

#16 24th October 2007, 10:42 PM

Don't remember reading this one; good stuff AG. I read Vorhaus' book and completely forgot about his 'pulse' concept.

But ya, your M as well as your opponents' should always be among the main factors in deciding what to do during a hand. tbh I often find myself distracted enough to forget to really take my time and analyze what the ideal style should be at a table.

#17 26th October 2007, 4:02 PM

thanks for the great info!

#18 11th January 2008, 5:14 AM

OK kids, this is the secret to tournament poker:

stop thinking about cards and start thinking about stack size, both your opponents AND yours vis a vis the blinds/pot.

#19 11th January 2008, 6:18 AM

It always seems to me that in a typical online structure, what you refer to as the ulse" almst invariably winds up controlling the end game play. In a standard PS tournament 1500 starting chips and 15 minute blinds, by the time you get down to the final table, even the chip leaders have such low relative Ms that very few hands go to showdown, and those that do usually put 1 or more players at risk for their whole stack.

A final table I was at the other night, with blinds of 4-8k and 500 antes, even the middle stacjs had Ms of 10-12, and at a cost of 15,500 per round with blinds due to rise again soon, most every hand is a fold or shove situation.

#20 11th January 2008, 6:20 AM

First read of this thread and just wanted to comment that this is the basis for much of Kill Everyone (I know you have it AG but I don't know if you've read it). And, you're right, knowing what size stacks to attack is the key to tourney poker.

#21 12th January 2008, 6:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

First read of this thread and just wanted to comment that this is the basis for much of Kill Everyone (I know you have it AG but I don't know if you've read it). And, you're right, knowing what size stacks to attack is the key to tourney poker.

would you recommend this book? also who is the author?
<3

#22 12th January 2008, 7:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanquish

would you recommend this book? also who is the author?
<3

Yes, recommended: Kill Everyone.

#23 30th July 2009, 3:12 PM

Every time I read a thread or a post written by you you always have a link to a book that I end up wanting.

Very nice post. The concepts are understandable and practicing them will probably bring me some positive results.

Maybe I have a sick sense of humour but I Even enjoy reading your biting sarcasm, its hilarious.

Thanks.

#24 30th July 2009, 7:12 PM

These are great concepts to use. I need to try them when i final table the next time.

#25 31st July 2009, 3:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8Michael3

Every time I read a thread or a post written by you you always have a link to a book that I end up wanting.

Very nice post. The concepts are understandable and practicing them will probably bring me some positive results.

Maybe I have a sick sense of humour but I Even enjoy reading your biting sarcasm, its hilarious.

Thanks.

thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymfc

AG ,I like it , but I'm not sure you practice what you preach , lol, maybe you know how I play and can play me different but you have always still stolen my blind even when I'm short stacked , you have also called my all in with a marginal hand ,(possibly doubling me up ) and got on others for not calling me when I'm in shove mode. please explain yourself.

Just reread this thread, and I think you really missed my point: it's not that you should "play tight" it's that this particular situation dictates that tight play is necessary. Note that if I had AD's stack stealing from the middle stacks would be indicated.

#26 31st July 2009, 7:04 PM

i totally agree with everything you said here. especially the big stack play. one thing i think could be added is the fact the big stack has to becareful of betting too much vs a SS and comitting himself too light. also in these spot i usually try to be betting 2-2.5xbbs. going after the medium stacks and avoiding the small ones is great playing. for the added reason of keeping this dynamic lasting for as long as possible. so you can keep bleeding the medium stacks while the SS stay SS and your stack keeps growing.

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