On which cards I have to shove allin in short stack...

Hello friends,

I have a very big problem of playing in short stack in tourneys. Actually, the problem is that I don't know on which cards i have to shove allin. So, if anybody call me i have little chance against him.

Give me some range... just do not give me aks, aa, qq. I know that there are made for shove allin. But, i can't wait for them in less than 25 bb and antes started.

Just give me a marginal range as well.

or

if you give me any suggestion to play well in tourneys short stacked, then you are welcome here.

any pair will do for me on a short stack.

DaBigWo said:

any pair will do for me on a short stack.

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what about Axs and Axo??

Pairs come very rarely in such situation....:hello:

well 10-15bbs im shoving any suited connectors any pair any A when less then 10bbs im shoving any2 in position. once your short stacked you just cant wait for AA you have to take a chance to double up

bigcat41 said:

well 10-15bbs im shoving any suited connectors any pair any A when less then 10bbs im shoving any2 in position. once your short stacked you just cant wait for AA you have to take a chance to double up

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are you sure about it and what about suited gappers??

I have a feeling you are waiting until you are VERY low-stacked to push in these tournaments. It's all about position if this is the case. The way I look at it, if you have a short stack SOMEBODY is going to call your all-in to try to knock you out, if you are on the button and a few players have limped before you it can be a good idea to push with any two and try to steal. I will often push with Ax when my stack is low because you are ahead of any non-pair that isn't a better Ace preflop, and trust me you'll get called by some KQ/KJ/Q10 type of hands. Honestly, I'd rather have Axo than a small PP like 44.

A bit of advice would be to start looking at your M, when it's getting around 10 you're pretty much in all-in or fold mode, it's better to bite the bullet and shove when you have enough chips to possibly steal than wait until you have like 2 blinds left and get sucked out on because you don't have enough chips to make anyone fold.

It depends on how short of a short stack we are talking about. Also, I'm assuming this is a MTT and we're still a ways off from the bubble (otherwise ICM becomes a huge factor and your question is too vague and simple to factor in ICM).

in the 15bb range if there are antes then you should be pushing pretty wide. And ideally you want to be first in the pot as simply winning the blinds and antes is a big chunk of your stack.

what is pretty wide? in early position I'd say any pocket pair, any suited ace, A9o+, KQ, KJs, and a few mid suited connecters such as 78s, 79s, 89s, 67s.

at 15 bbs if there are antes and limpers then you still want to be pushing pretty wide, but I'd add in a few more suited connectors and drop Ace rag. The reason is the presence of even a single limper makes it pretty likely that you'll get called and so you want to push hands that are more likely to be live when you are called. An ace is the most common card people/limpers play. If they limp A9 then you jam with A6 and everyone else folds and it's only a little more to call then they will, and you are crushed.

If you have a stack in the 10-15bb range then basically the same as above except probably any ace will do (not just suited ace rag). As for jamming over the top of the limpers: it's still generally a profitable move, but you are extremely likely to get called now. If there are 2+ limpers then it is almost a certainty that you will get called...but the extra dead money makes it even more worth it.

If you have under 10bbs, then first of all, there better be a very good reason that you got this low without jamming sooner. (most common legitimate reason is that you lost an all in vs. a shorter stack and were left crippled). Now, all that matters is being first in with any type of live hand. You cannot afford to pay the blinds again. you'll pretty much have to defend your BB with any 2 cards except in very rare situations. Before it comes to that, it's best to just jam yourself.

if it folds to you in late position with <10bbs, jam almost any 2 cards

if it folds to you in mid position with <10bbs jam a very wide range including all suited connectors as low as about 45s, all pairs, all aces, and any 2 cards over 7 even if they are not suited.

In early position with <10bbs if you are first into the pot you still have to jam pretty wide...remember you'll be paying the blinds in a couple hands and you CANNOT afford that. probably about the same range as above but add in any suited connectors, almost any suited cards, and probably any King. maybe you can let 82s go or 72s but you should probably jam 74s because it's suited, its connected and most importantly it's live.

I would say that I do my best to NOT BE short stacked in any tournament at any time. I play standard tight poker, not saying I won't make a move now and then when in position and a limp pot, but I have learned that by being patient and playing tight and exploiting the tells I can discern I end up at the final table in my local poker room where we have a weekly Friday night tourny 35 buy in plus add ons 3000 foe 20 bucks for first 3 rounds, and rebuysa for fist 3 rounds usually pays 7 places with first being between 8 and 1200.

SanJoseShark said:

I have a feeling you are waiting until you are VERY low-stacked to push in these tournaments. It's all about position if this is the case. The way I look at it, if you have a short stack SOMEBODY is going to call your all-in to try to knock you out, if you are on the button and a few players have limped before you it can be a good idea to push with any two and try to steal. I will often push with Ax when my stack is low because you are ahead of any non-pair that isn't a better Ace preflop, and trust me you'll get called by some KQ/KJ/Q10 type of hands. Honestly, I'd rather have Axo than a small PP like 44.

A bit of advice would be to start looking at your M, when it's getting around 10 you're pretty much in all-in or fold mode, it's better to bite the bullet and shove when you have enough chips to possibly steal than wait until you have like 2 blinds left and get sucked out on because you don't have enough chips to make anyone fold.

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can you suggest me how to calculate M in tournaments?

bondgaurav21 said:

can you suggest me how to calculate M in tournaments?

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Chips / [bb+sb+(ante x # of seated players)] = M

it's basically a calculation of how many rounds you can survive at the current level without playing a hand, I find that it's a better calculation of your standing in the tournament than how many bb's you have left.

So, if blinds are 1000/500 with a 100 ante and there are 9 players at the table, the M=2400. If you have 10,000 chips your M is just above 4. There are a lot of books on poker strategy that tell you how you should play based on your M.

I play more of a tight style, some of the posts in this thread just seem completely mesmerizing to me, even though i'm probably wrong here's my input

15bbs - Early position, open jamming AK/JJ/QQ and obviously your standard open size or limp with AA/KK

Middle position (see above) and also gunna add 99/1010. I'm happy raise folding hands like AQ/AJ.

Late position - Again I don't go crazy, 15bbs is a very workable stack and there's no need to put your tourney life on the line with marginals. From the CO i'm probably 88+ AQ+ again i'd not be open jamming AA/KK, from the button is where we can loosen up AQ+ 22+ good for a shove. SB for me A10+ 22+ also throw in some suited broadways like QKs QJs etc..

10bbs - Early position, open jamming AQ+ (sometimes AJ? depends on few factors) 99+

Middle Position, 77+ AJ+

Late position -

CO A10+ (A9/8s) 22+ QKs QJs

BTN A5+ 22+ any suited broadway/connectors

SB Ax Kx 22+ any broadway/connectors, hands like 810s/J9s/Q9s (one gappers)

Got lazy at the end there But there you have it my entire range while short, this works for ME, sure lot's of people will tell you different better ways to use a short stack effectively Just note that the ranges i've listed are my open jamming range, 3bet jamming is a whole nother kettle of fish & also stack sizes of opponents play a HUGE role in what hands you should be getting it in with, for example sitting on 15bbs in SB against a villain with 5bbs we can jam way way wider than facing a villain who has us covered. Sorry i'll stop rambling now.

such a hard question, we need to know tourney structure, effective stack size, and position

in a reg format sng with 10bbs effective utg we can shove TT and AK, if on the btn with the same stack size we can shove 33, A8, A5s, KQ, QTs, JTs

thatgreekdude said:

I play more of a tight style, some of the posts in this thread just seem completely mesmerizing to me, even though i'm probably wrong here's my input

15bbs - Early position, open jamming AK/JJ/QQ and obviously your standard open size or limp with AA/KK

Middle position (see above) and also gunna add 99/1010. I'm happy raise folding hands like AQ/AJ.

Late position - Again I don't go crazy, 15bbs is a very workable stack and there's no need to put your tourney life on the line with marginals. From the CO i'm probably 88+ AQ+ again i'd not be open jamming AA/KK, from the button is where we can loosen up AQ+ 22+ good for a shove. SB for me A10+ 22+ also throw in some suited broadways like QKs QJs etc..

10bbs - Early position, open jamming AQ+ (sometimes AJ? depends on few factors) 99+

Middle Position, 77+ AJ+

Late position -

CO A10+ (A9/8s) 22+ QKs QJs

BTN A5+ 22+ any suited broadway/connectors

SB Ax Kx 22+ any broadway/connectors, hands like 810s/J9s/Q9s (one gappers)

Got lazy at the end there But there you have it my entire range while short, this works for ME, sure lot's of people will tell you different better ways to use a short stack effectively Just note that the ranges i've listed are my open jamming range, 3bet jamming is a whole nother kettle of fish & also stack sizes of opponents play a HUGE role in what hands you should be getting it in with, for example sitting on 15bbs in SB against a villain with 5bbs we can jam way way wider than facing a villain who has us covered. Sorry i'll stop rambling now.

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so when you're short stacked you only push a typical "value" range unless you're on the button or small blind? I feel like I would blind out before I got a chance to get my stack in...

I think all this is great advice, but don't get fixated on any particular hands alone - you can still use your position to your advantage. Especially close to the money. Sooner or later you are shoving anyway. Either a weak hand in a good spot or a strong/semi strong hand in a bad spot.

For example - 7-9 suited on the button with one limper? Shove. You might only be facing one overcard. Weak hand, good spot. If one of the blinds has AA thru 99, oh well. On to the next one.

A-J suited UTG? Shove, but any better ace/pair is going to call. Strong/semi strong hand, bad spot.

Short stacked, I would rather be weak handed in a good spot than semi-strong in a bad spot.

missjacki said:

so when you're short stacked you only push a typical "value" range unless you're on the button or small blind? I feel like I would blind out before I got a chance to get my stack in...

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I dunno, I guess. I rarely drop below 8bbs using this strat tbh with you, the ranges I stated are general, I'm happy widening under certain circumstances. I saw you said A9+ 22+ ep with 15bbs that seems crazy to me but then again you are way more experienced than me and I think you give awesome advice so I'm probably wrong.

Michael Paler said:

I think all this is great advice, but don't get fixated on any particular hands alone - you can still use your position to your advantage. Especially close to the money. Sooner or later you are shoving anyway. Either a weak hand in a good spot or a strong/semi strong hand in a bad spot.

For example - 7-9 suited on the button with one limper? Shove. You might only be facing one overcard. Weak hand, good spot. If one of the blinds has AA thru 99, oh well. On to the next one.

A-J suited UTG? Shove, but any better ace/pair is going to call. Strong/semi strong hand, bad spot.

Short stacked, I would rather be weak handed in a good spot than semi-strong in a bad spot.

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Very well said Michael!

thatgreekdude said:

I dunno, I guess. I rarely drop below 8bbs using this strat tbh with you, the ranges I stated are general, I'm happy widening under certain circumstances. I saw you said A9+ 22+ ep with 15bbs that seems crazy to me but then again you are way more experienced than me and I think you give awesome advice so I'm probably wrong.

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No, you're not probably wrong. We probably just have different definitions of what "short stacked" means to us. For me, at 10-15bbs I start looking for good or even decent spots to get it in. Some players are more comfortable getting a little shorter before they jam.

It also really does depend on the tourney type and average stack though...because I do play some turbo SnGs where avg stack is maybe 8-10 bbs and so if you have 15bbs you're not short at all, you're the big stack.

It really does come down to a lot of factors like, how many BB's the stacks have behind how each player is playing and of course position. Your range must alter based on players calling ranges so don't use them all the time, make sure you adjust by shoving wider vs tighter players and shoving less vs the loose players.

Here is a range If antes are in play but you have to tighten up your range if not but here goes vs average players when you have 10bb left at a full table these are profitable shoves;


UTG: 33+ A8s+ A5s AJo+ K9s+ KQo QTs+ JTs T9s
UTG+1: 22+ A8s+ A5s ATo+ K9s+ KQo Q9s+ J9s+ T9s
MP: 22+ A8s+ A5s-A4s ATo+ K9s+ KJo+ Q9s+ QJo J9s+ T9s
MP1: 22+ A2s+ A9o+ K8s+ KJo+ Q9s+ QJo J8s+ JTo T8s+ 98s
HJ: 22+ A2s+ A5o+ K7s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ 98s 87s
CO: 22+ Ax+ K6s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T7s+ 97s+ 87s 76s
BTN: 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K8o+ Q6s+ Q9o+ J7s+ J9o+ T7s+ T9o 96s+ 86s+ 75s+ 65s
SB: 22+ Qx+ J2s+ J6o+ T2s+ T7o+ 94s+ 97o+ 84s+ 86o+ 74s+ 76o 63s+ 53s+ 43s

Obviously though the shorter you get the much wider your range has to become so bear that in mind, what might be a shove from MP with 10bb will become a shove from an earlier position etc with say 7bb.

You have to adapt this chart according to the players at your table but this is a good guide on what hands to shove.
It was provided by good MTT player who has some videos in youtube