Call or Fold?

The game is NL hold ‘em with a $300 buy in, 30 minute levels, and 40K starting stacks. We’ve been playing for about 5 hours and I have around 50K, so naturally, one of the smaller stacks though not yet in desperation mode.

Blinds have just gone up to 3K 1.5K with no ante and two seats to my left is a loud mouth obnoxious player that I have never seen, despite being there just about every weekend, that thinks he is God’s gift to poker. Within the last 3 hands he has been caught bluffing with 68os, Js3s, and AKos with no board help and is really getting on my nerves, though I’m trying my best to just stay away from him, he had about 200K but still has about 90K-100K in chips.

I have As Js from cutoff +1 and open raise to 7.5K, a standard raise at this table and level. My infamous foe has not been playing good poker and has been watching football more than playing poker. At the time I made the raise he was complaining about a called defense, looked at his cards, gave me the “I’m a God and your not” glare and smooth called my raise from the button. The flop came out 2 Q 2, rainbow without a single spade.

Now normally, I would never C-bet here, however. As the flop comes out he is still watching football and the waitress comes up behind him with his drink order, so he starts talking to her and giving her a tip. I don’t like making C-bets with virtually no outs on a paired board against what can only be described as a slot machine, but, given the fact that he has no idea what has even happened I quietly bet 10K into a pot of 19.5K. The dealer finally has to get his attention and point out the fact that I have bet, he is way to busy to be bothered by this game of poker. He again gives me the glare, to which I just continue staring at the pot, and shoves all in!

I would love to call and snap this A-hole off, but good poker dictates that I don’t loose my cool and loose my tournament life with Ace high. I think anyway, did I have the best hand and let this A-hole push me off it? The problem is that folding leaves me with 10 BB and I ended up pushing all-in 5 hands later from UTG with 22 and got busted by AA. Effectively, this A-hole busted any chance I had of even cashing much less winning. Obviously, you can’t beat the idiots so just not plying them is probably the best option, but given the scenario at hand; do you call or fold?

Josh

shove preflop

Shove, why?

I don’t even think he is going to play – I look at this as a raise or fold hand in this position with my stack. Best case scenario, everyone folds and I win 4.5K, worst case I get busted by AA from one of the blinds. I'm laying 50K against 4K - folding is a great option to any action; I'm just questioning this one players action!

Maybe shove post flop, or check and fold, but again I though I could win the pot since he wasn’t even paying attention!

Josh

because it's the correct play.

Don't know how shoving pre is the correct play here. We're winning 4.5k for risking 50k, surely not profitable in terms of tourney equity considering we're probably only being called by something that crushes us or flipping at best. The play has to work 10 times out of 11 to be profitable in terms of chips and I'm sure we can find a better spot when blinds are worth stealing. Shoving pre basically turns our hand into a bluff and risks our tourney life.

How many are at table? As played I probably raise similar, maybe slightly less, 2.5xBB and the check/fold if I miss as your commiting to much of your stack with a cb, especially against a wild card.

at this point we should be shoving close to any time it folds to us

if you want to c/f or b/f flop then make it 6k pre. putting in 1/3 your stack with 16 BBs and not knowing what to do after that is pretty horrible.

there are basically 3 types of tournament players
1. The good players who know you have to shove pretty wide, so their JTs/K8s/44 is doing pretty good against your range
2. The people who just want to gamble with pretty cards
3. nits who try to fold into an occasional min-cash

Shoving is good against all of these people.

Thats why I'd open with less then if we don't hit we can get away, If we flop nicely we shove. I'd say we don't need to shove/fold until the next level at least.

It sounds like we have to double up twice to have good chip position, the next level we have ~ 10 BBs. Not a good spot at all.

I was looking for a tweet I saw over the summer from nutsinho because I thought it was a similar spot. It's not actually cuz he had a bigger stack (40 bbs) and UTG shoved

OP you do know we have read the other posts eh?
'quietly bet 10k' but no plan for how you'll play the rest of hand
The problem is, you keep pushing up against what you call 'idiots' with nothing, and they keep outplaying you!

Yea maybe I'm being nitty and wouldn't want to commit my stack with it. I'd be happy to on Button or SB. Presuming by CO+1 OP means seat before CO. How far are we off the bubble OP?

This is a 100% shove pre (even if we turn our hand face up).

I simply do not, and never will, understand a pre flop shove there. 2 possible outcomes, I win 4.5K or I lose my whole stack – what are any of you geniuses thinking? I will fold before ever pushing; all-in is not even a credible option! Not to mention that was not the question that I asked in the first place!

Normally, with this flop and this hand, position, and stack I would check, check, check fold! I’ve still got a playable stack, in fact in many cases I may just fold pre-flop, clearly that’s what I should have done here – but I didn’t – now I just want to know if I was beat or not.

I knew this guy was a wildcard, but a wildcard I thought would fold due to lack of interest; the three previous pots where he was just being a jackass, he was also raising, and trying (Although poorly) to represent some hands. If he outplayed me, he’s the best player in the world, to be able to watch a football game and shove against his opponent! No, he was a load mouth moron and I’m just wondering if he actually had me beat or if a “call all my chips off with AJ” was justified. If he did have me beat it was something like 88, and even though I didn’t call, I had a sneaking suspicion based on the previous three hands that AJ was good; but really , what can I beat, A10? I think I should have called, of course that’s easier said than done especially after I now know that I would bust a mere 5 hands later!

you can also get called and double up. also winning 4.5K is a pretty good result.

also, losing your "whole stack" is hardly a disaster as your tournament equity is extremely low and there's a really good chance this will be the best hand you see.

you don't have a playable stack, as is obvious from your confusion what to do on the flop. you don't have room to play raise-fold, as is evidenced by the fact that losing this pot forces you to shove 22 UTG.

shove pre. if you want a chance to win more chips and add FE, raise to like $11K and shove all flops.

If you aren't getting it in pre with worse hands than this in this situation you are forfeiting tons of EV.

In the future, be more aggressive with smaller blinds so you can bust out earlier or have a bigger stack and thus avoid this spot where you are clearly lost.

p.s. it doesn't seem like you have the mindset for tournament poker.

coin flip on that. you felt like you had a read it sounds like, felt like he was not into the game, shoved without even really knowing what was going on, I am thinking a shove wouldn't have been so bad. you were at that point. but yeah, sucks going in with ace high, but was the best probably

Lol shove here, sorry new guy you have a lot to learn about poker main reason being, you still has fold equity, ( others will have a harder desission to call) and thus shoving is correct, no worrying about being out played, because is AJ missed and villian bets ( anything! or shoves ) AJ only beats a bluff. But shove all in, you get called with worse, better, or fold and you are alive for a whole round.

To survive tourneys you should be stealing the Blinds at LEAST 1 time a round ( 1 every 9 hands ) or 50% of the time you are in position ( button or cut off ) and you will survive toruneys even if you are card dead.

And to answer your question, I call you pot commited yourself by putting in more than half your stack ( 7.5k and 19.5) you said you had 50k thats more than half and as such you pot commited yourself.

Look, I’m an experienced poker player and I do well at it. Live poker is a totally different ballgame at the level I play at. Online, yeah 10 BB sucks, but live, 8 BB is actually quite a bit of fold equity, and hell the phrase “all-in” often works just as good!

I started the hand with 50K, otherwise known as nearly 17 BB – if you can’t win with that, you can’t win! I am starting to feel the pressure and a suited AJ looks pretty good from late position – can you really argue with that? Granted most of my play at this point will be for my entire stack – but I have some time to pick my spot, and normally, AJ, suited or not, would not do that for me!

Winning 4.5K puts me in exactly the same spot after risking my entire stack – if I get called there is nearly a 100% chance that I am not only beat but dominated. I could get lucky, but as a good player I never play a hand hoping that I’ll just get lucky!

Yes, a weak area of my game is not pushing with weaker hands – though I hardly think this situation justifies such a shove, I would rather fold and move on to the next hand, the unfortunate thing about this hand as compared to a K10 or Q9 is that most of my outs will be in the hand that calls me – the only reason I even played this hand was because my position was pretty damn good. Also, I simply don’t approve of the “young guns” approach to poker, preferring instead to patiently wait for spots and hands instead of busting by level 2 or having 500K at the same spot, I’ll take the slow and steady hare any day of the week and I think you ought to re-consider your position as well – yes, 17BB is still playable, one double up and I win!

Well, you didnt you bet out so now we are telling you what would have been a better play, ( live or online ) And Again you should have called after pot commiting yourself. ( unless you think 2/3 of your stack is pot commited then you could barely fold but more than half your stack to me is pot commited. )

well, you are wrong. 34 BBs is barely playable (2.5 x starting stack 5 hours in hardly sounds very good) and how the hell are you going to double up if you aren't pushing hands as good as AJs?

I honestly find it lolable that you've had any real success at poker with the mindset you've displayed in your OPs.

if it is true that you are only getting called by hands that have you crushed/flip (which I really doubt) you should be pushing with almost ATC as you will get folds
~85%. You can be really nitty and cut out hands that have a deuce or offsuit 3 and push 80% (43s+) of hands for a profitable shove instead.

KT
http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...0%25&s=classic

Q9
http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...0%25&s=classic

AJs
http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...0%25&s=classic

I know this is a fourm and you are playing higher stakes, but many of our members here play High limits too. So do not make money the issue here

I should mention the major problem you have here is a monkey on your left who will probably flat you once in a while, as happened here.

I could almost see an argument for standard open if the BTN was a good player and the blinds were fish but it seems to be the opposite of that here.

I wonder if you shove and get called with worse and still lose, ( lets assume he had A2) would you have thought that to be bad play on your part? ( pre flop ) ?

Look I will never be in favor of a pre-flop shove here. Yes I definitely could have considered the loose cannon to left a little better. The two things that threw off my normal immediate fold were my position and his lack of interest – obviously that misjudgment (whether he did it intentionally or not) cost me the tournament. I’m just trying to figure out if he was full of it as he had been on the three previous hands or if AJ was good, I’ve been going back and forth – from a good player standpoint I like my fold. I invested 7.5K + 10K of my 50K stack, or roughly 1/3 of my stack – tough to get away from but what’s my alternative – call all-in with Ace high? Pot committed is a total myth in tournament poker. You won’t find any argument from me that the best play is simply not to put myself in that position, but despite my best efforts, I ended up there anyway. Folding still yields 10 BB – I fold, but really think that I am ahead!

Buadib1 –

I tell you what, just stop wasting my time! I just read an interview from one of this year’s November 9 that said his goal was to have 20BB at any stage of the tournament. Not that I needed that quote to tell me you have no idea what you’re talking about – 34 BB, shut up and stop wasting my time! I hope you bust in a situation where you could have won simply by folding!

And are you seriously telling me that if I push with AJ and get called, the other guy has A10 or less? “Hands that have you crushed/flip (which I really doubt)” – You are a piece of work and clearly do not win as much as you could; if at all!

Lol the force is strong with this one. Hmm i think maybe you should read the many posts CC has to offer and get a grasp of why we are saying what we are saying. We do not do it just to act like we have our own ( we think we are the best) oppinion, but rather many of us have studied other pros, some are pros, and some are even being trained by PROS. So again, no one is ever going to be 100% right, but rather, as a hole, a group, we all tend to agree on some of the more.... how do you say... obvious plays. Again, we were not their with you, you did give good detail, but still we can not say what we would have done in your shoes. Every hand is different, and if you felt this wasthe best way to get an advantage on a so called ( Donk ) wildcard, then by all means you got unlucky. But overall we try to analyze play in the long run. Not just in the moment. Thats were most of our answers and advice derives from.

Take it or leave it. And again, i felt you were pot commited ( i thought you bet 19.5k was it 10 instead? ) so i call ( if not, a fold might have been just as you actually did )

Did you notice you have less than 20 BBs here? You are well beyond desperation time.

If you are never shoving here, then you are simply playing this spot incorrectly. I just
showed you that if your questionable statement is true, it is profitable to shove with way way worse than AJs.

It probably could be ATC, but I went on the nitty side and pushed 80%.

I mean this spot becomes an even more obvious shove because of the idiot on your left, whom you are unnaturally obsessed with yet are oblivious to how him being there changes the dynamics of the hand.

Show the math of shoving AJs with 16-17 BBs from CO vs. shoving 22 UTG with 10 BBs and explain why one is a shove while the other one isn't.

Really wishing CC had a LIKE button for posts :P

BTW on November 9 bubble, John Hewitt, who was probably the third-tightest player at the table, called two all-ins with ATo and KQo vs. the two tightest players at the table.

The KQo has been much discussed and is probably the worst call I've ever seen in my life (other than "If you call, it's gonna be all over, baby" --"I call, I play the board."), for reasons that have been discussed plenty of times elsewhere. But the AT call was pretty decent to marginal. Antonio Esfandiari thought he should call.

Hmmm, i missed it? lol what happened?

I think shoving pre is fine, especially with a terrible player left to act. If you were 3bet pre would you fold? if not you may aswell shove pre for more fold equity, getting flatted leaves you in a awkward spot. If you are only getting called by better then shove is fine as the times they hold a superior hand are slim, and outweighed by the pots we take down when it is folded.

As played, given villain has shown down with absolute air in multiple hands shouldn't we be calling his flop shove? if 68o J3s etc are possible surely we crush his range on that board?

'If' you chose/choose to read baudib's posts here thoroughly (trying to be open-minded in the process) no doubt you will learn stuff.

Personally I'm shoving this 100% of the time!! ainec

'If' I'd foolishly chosen to raise pre instead of shoving (vs. the guy you've described here).. I'd be way more inclined to crai here instead of b/f (given what you believe to be his tendancies). 'But'.. I hate to even go this route at all (with the 'thinking')... 'because' this is clearly a shove all day long in this spot.

I was thinking of writing out some of the math for you in this post but quite honestly after reading your responses I think I'd prolly be better off regg'ing for the next 'Hubbles' ... cuz I really don't think you're even interested. Trying to go back & have your question answered in regards to 'call or fold' really shouldn't be the issue at all. The issue is > you've gotten yourself into this shytty spot in the first place by not taking the correct action pre.. 'shove'!!!
(now I'm off.. cuz it's time for "Hubbles".. hubbles.. Hubbles.. HUBBLES.... gonna take that bytch down tonight!)
btw, I final tabled the Stud H/L this evening > 5th out of 3,547 runners!! (too bad it wasn't the 'Hubbles')

quick and dirty math

if BTN/SB/BB only call 5% of hands (ignoring the times 2+ players wake up with a premium)

if you shove 10 times with a top 80% hand

you win 4.5K roughly 8.5 times = 38,250
you will get called roughly 1.5

our top 80% hand will win 29% of the time (for quick smell test, 43s is 27% vs. 99+/AQ+)

so out of 1.5 times we get called we win .435 times

ignoring blinds we basically double up = 21,750

We lose 1.0625 times = 53,250

38,250 + 21,750 = 60,000

On average we win +675 chips per shove

there ya go.... & I was thinking I was gonna make him work for it (you know... like 'ask') But then feeling tired & a bit mischievous, was thinkin' of a new title for thread instead 'call' or 'fold' or 'quit'. Just kidding OP.. lighten up a bit would ya.

btw, I'm catchin' up on you in post counts this month
We should hook up on the playchip HomeGame Stars tables for a series of HU Sng's (my treat). You can play a max. of 10games per day (playchip). Best of 7 in nlhe, & a best of 3 in PLO. What say you?

yeah i'm game, hit me up tomorrow