BRM for Double or Nothing SNGs

Hi all
I've read a lot on good BRM being key to success in poker because of variance, and also from what I've noticed personally, if you're playing at stakes that are too high for what you're used to, then it can impact your play negatively.
So I buy into the 50 BI rule for single table SNGs but what about for Double or Nothing. Surely they have a lower variance and any downswings are likely to be smaller in size. If so, what type of BRM should you adopt for DON at the lower limits where the rake is 20% of the BI?

I think 25 buy-ins are enough for small limit buy-in DONs. But you have to consider a bigger BR once you go up in limits. Better players so you do not want to go broke before you manage to adjust.

Thanks for that. I now they are not really recommended because of the rake but they seem like a good place to start in terms of learning the basics, learning patience and building up a little confidence. Problem is they can take a while to increase your bankroll if you stick to 50 BI strategy so I was wondering if I could go lower. 25 buy-ins seems like a reasonable amount.

lol.

Sound bankroll management generally dictates that a tournament player maintain a minimum of 50 buy-ins. I agree that the bankroll swings will be smaller when playing DONs but you must also balance this against the fact that the rake in DONs is significantly higher than that in other tourneys.

You should probably master the lower stakes before you move up anyway. If you can really beat the lower stakes, your bankroll shouldn't be an impediment and you should be able to move up in stakes fairly quickly (particularly if you are multi-tabling).

I don't think the higher rake has any significant bearing on the variance you will experience though will it? I have about a 70% winrate so far albeit with a statistically insignificant sample size but the 20% rake is making progress take a long time. I'm not multi-tabling yet as I was thinking about trying to get to the levels where the rake is 10-15% before learning this.

On merge, the rake is lower. 8% instead of 10%. I tried grinding the DONs, but I usually find myself on the bubble with about my original chip stack when the blinds are at 75/150 or higher, and 10BBs or less, and there's my 50/50. Maybe I play too tight, I dunno. But I agree, for good BRM, the variance of DONs is lower, so you don't need to be that conservative.

Is 10% rake really bad for DoNs ? I thought it was good... iPoker has 20% rake at the 1 dollar level.

I had posted this on another thread but my question was what do you consier a winable percentage for these DoN's. Im probably only around 55% at the time and when you consider the rake then Im not even quite treading water.

I'd rather sit on the street begging than play DoN sng's

I find the DONs on Merge (specifically Lock) to be deliciously soft. I play up to the $80's and even though I'm playing with some red pros at those levels, they've been very lucrative, especially with the 35% RB I get. If I played enough volume (which I don't since BF) I'd switch to VIP and get upwards of 50% RB equivalent.

I do find the variance is much lower at the lower buy-ins, as there's a lot more gambling going on and you have to be able to switch up your strategy just like with any other major shift in poker stakes. $5 DON strategy does not win $50 DONs, and vice versa, and I find this to be even more true than say $5 MTTs vs $50 MTTs.

As far as BR, I've not given it much thought although I guess I do keep less on the site when I'm playing primarily DONs. My true BR is never on any site -- I'll deposit as much as I need to play at whatever stakes I want to play, but I'm not leaving that money sitting on a site. Especially after BF. I've been regularly withdrawing $1000-$1500 at a time to keep the online balance down to several hundred bucks.

10% rake is crazy for DONs. 8% (Merge) is also too high.

Variance is pretty low on these, 40-50 buyins should be fine, definitely need less than other tournament types.

After switching to MTT / MTSNG, I can never go back to DONs. Truly just an awful awful grind.

Typo fixed. Duh.

Funny, I feel the opposite. I used to play a lot of MTTs, had some moderate success at it, but got burned out quickly. I hate the long MTT grinds and the extremely high variance. I find SNGs and DONs much more suited to my style of play and availability. And cash, of course, but I tend to either play one or the other, and for the last 18 months or so I've been in the SnG/DON mode.

Is it not the exact same player pool, i.e. a network?

No. With the exception of some specific network-wide events, players are limited to playing against others on their same skin.

The other skins may be equally soft, I just don't have experience playing DONs anywhere else. I also have Carbon, BCP, and SB skin accounts but don't play there.

For Merge SNGs, you're playing against the same players regardless of which skin you choose to play on. If you look it up across the skins, you'll see the same IDs registering on whichever site you log-in. Actually, I think there are very few games on any Merge skin which are specific to the skin... usually just promotional games and private events.

Whether you play on Lock, Carbon, FeltStars, Hero Poker, etc., the games and players are all the same.

Are you sure? I asked about this awhile back when I started playing and was told what I repeated above. I.e., the total number of players you see in the lobby is the network pool, but the players you typically sit down with are on your skin.

I know most of the regulars playing DONs on Lock. I've looked up the same level DONs on other skins, and I see entirely different players registering. Some skins don't even offer the same games or number of games.

I'll ask Eric Lynch and see what he says...

You should have exactly ONE buy-in. That way it really is a double or nothing affair. If you win you should obviously move up so you once again have all your $$s on that one tournament.

Nah, I mean the point of a network is to get a bigger player pool, right? With ipoker and ongame for sure it's the same players, never really played on merge myself though.

It was initially my assumption as well when I started playing on Merge, but I discovered (and was told) differently at the time.

I've posted the question to Eric "Rizen" Lynch, who is the VP/Poker Room Manager at Lock and the primary Lock support contact at 2p2. I'll report back what he says.

Almost positive these are network-wide on Merge.

I play on diffrent skins and am always playing with same regulars. I think possibly players only. might be an exception becuase all the skins ive been on share the same first depositors freeroll except players only gives you one ticket to first depoFR that runs once a week and they award cash.

If you have any kind of large-field, multiple-seat MTT experience, DoN SNGs are for you. They're also good for practicing those skills. The BR requirements for these games are basically the same for HU SNGs, if you play them. This should make sense because you have the same odds of winning the same amount. Yes, they seem easy to win, especially at lower levels, but you can go on a long string of losing even in easy games. And since you don't win much in these games when you do win, you do need to have a slightly higher number of buy-ins to play these games vs. standard SNGs, when it feels like you could get away with less. This becomes more and more true when you move up in levels.

The best piece of advice for these games is to take notes... really good notes. Go back after an session and take notes if you have to (Full Tilt Poker made this really easy). Spend a few minutes before a session too looking at the games that are running and registering and pay attention to the names which are in multiple tournaments. Stay away from them as much as possible. Your notes come into play here even more. Mark down who you see making certain plays (good and bad) and the level in which you played them.

I've said this before about other formats, but you really shouldn't play SNGs of any kind without paying attention to your reward programs, including rakeback (probably most importantly if it's available). You'll base your success and evaluation based on volume. I'd stay far away from these formats if you don't have rakeback and some of your opponents might have it. The difference there will add up significantly when you get to the volume necessary to get any idea of how good you actually are. Even in the short term, your opponents can make plays against you that you can't make against them and still beat rake. Does that sound like something that makes sense to you? Do you really want to play with the equivalent of one hand tied behind your back?

If you don't have rakeback, you're better off playing MTTs where the variance is high and the rake isn't high enough to put you at a disadvantage against 99% of the players you could come up against.

I shouldn't have spoken about Lock, because I've never played on there... maybe they have their own SNGs that players on other skins can't access, but every Merge site I've played on has a shared pool of players that can access the same ring games, SNGs and MTTs that you can find on other skins. FeltStars SNG players are playing against Aced Poker, Hero Poker, Carbon Poker, PlayersOnly, etc. If you go on sharkscope and use the Tournament Selector to search for SNGs, you won't see any listed for Lock, Carbon, etc., you'll just see them as Merge, because you can find a SNG with that tournament ID on any Merge skin... this includes the DoN SNGs. It's the same on Cake.

I dont get how people can actually enjoy these, I've played like 20 and I already dislike the experience haha.

Take it 5% rake is good then? If this is the case, no one in the world should play ipoker micro DoNs....

I stand corrected -- you all are right, they are shared. Haven't heard from Eric yet but another Lock Pro said they were shared. I just now went and looked up the same $80 DON on Lock, Carbon, and BCP, and they were the same game with the same 2 guys registered.

I remember doing the same comparison way back when I first questioned this myself, and I know I saw different games and players then. Possibly just a weird timing thing where a new game had started or something, I don't know. This led me to ask somewhere if they were not shared, and somebody told me only for certain games, hence my incorrect assumption.

5% is in the realm of reasonable. Pokerstars set the standard when they listened to the huge outcry from players to lower DON rake; they brought it down to 4% (from 10% I believe).

Fair enough Mentor, I don't play on Pokerstars just now so wasn't aware of this.

Guess it kind of makes sense to have the rake the same as HUSNGs like mentioned before. High rake can really damage your ROI on the DoN tables..

I like the bodog beginner SNG that's still pays out to five but gives out a pay structure similar to a regular SNG. I would think this might actually give you a better opportunity to make some money rather then just grind out the DONs!! JUST my opinion though. I guess maybe Im more interested in cash volume

Wow and there I was delighted to find a site (Everest) with "only" 10% rake at the micros.
I definitely get what people are saying about the boredom aspect but I still think they are good for beginners to learn some basic skills, especially patience, and also to gradually introduce and learn multi-tabling. I think a little bit of confidence early on in your poker playing is also important and from my experience you are more likely to get this from DONs rather than STT or MTT SNGs.

look at your roi and figure out your risk or ruin

or google "risk of ruin calculator poker"

gl at the tables,

t

ha ha ha

Having now played 80 DoN's, my ROI is a lousy 4% (including rake)... The ROI was a bit better before my last 4 tries, which were all losses, out in 6th 3x and 7th one time. The difference between cashing and bubbling is getting beat by crappier hands (going in) one time. There's little room for error because the blinds climb fast and the stack dwindles even quicker. You shove with AQ and get called by the lucky big stack fish who has been playing 50% of hands with 10 4 and you lose. Pretty frustrating stuff.

I don't think you need much of a bankroll for this, assuming you are pretty decent. But I don't think playing this for profit is a good thing. And even for practicing for MTTs I don't think it's that good because to play correctly, you have to be very conservative. In real MTTs, you should be more aggressive.

I usually only play DoN either if I feel bored with cash games, or if I have been on a prolonged bad run and wanna shake things up a bit. Once you get the hang of the basics, go with MTTs or cash games. More "bang for the buck."

Yeah I would like to switch to MTTs ultimately but surely at the lower limits they are only going to offer you a very low $/hr return, assuming you have a +ve ROI, because of the time they take.

Guys, don't be fooled: 6-max DONs can be extremely profitable, and I tend to agree that the BR requirements are probably not as strict because the variance is way lower. At least I'm finding that to be the case. Not saying to jump into them with 4 BI's or anything, but they're prime candidates for shot-taking and building a BR quickly if you approach them with the proper strategy. Do NOT attempt to play them like a standard STT.

The 6-max DONs are quick so you can get in lots of volume. If you have RB or play enough volume to get decent VIP levels, then the relatively high rake is offset even further. I get 35% RB, and since BF I play a very moderate amount of volume, averaging ~170 DONs per month, and I've still found them to be very profitable.

Just since starting them in March with a $200 deposit, I've made a $1450 withdrawal, a $1125 withdrawal, and am just days away from making another $1200 withdrawal. With each withdrawal I leave $200 or $300 and grind it up again. Eezy Peezy!

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