Big fold - was it correct?

Quite deep in a 500 man live tourney, average stack size is somewhere around 45-50k. I am short stacked with 26k and a very weird hand takes place...

Blinds of 1000-2000. Hero is in SB, two players in MP limp in, SB limps in with Ah8s, BB checks. Flop comes Ac9dJd, checked round. Turn comes 8d. Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 (60000~) bets 4000. MP2 (35000~) shoves.

On this incredibly draw heavy board and the shove into 3 people behind, I decided to give credit to MP2 for having either a monster draw that i would only be about 65% favourite with at most, or a made hand that leaves me with 4 outs or 2 outs. I'm unsure that at my stack size I should be laying this hand down though, but I was so sure it was the right decision. MP2 was very much a shove/fold player so I decided that he was tight enough to not shove ace rag here, and didn't think he was complex enough to focus on MP1's relatively wide range due to being big stacked.

Anyway, opinions welcome.

Stevo

Shove preflop dude.

Hello,

First of, you shoulden't be limping, even with a MP limps. You should either be folding or shoving, you only have 13big blinds left.

What if BB shoves on you both at this point pre flop?

I think in general, the hand played was bad, no offense.

I assume antes was in play so there 6k in the middle already when it comes to you preflop? This represents like 25% of your stack nearly, I would be shoving this from the SB..

Shove pre easy game.

Post flop, MP1 is claiming to have a hand with a half-pot bet and MP2 claims a better one with his shove. Can you even hope that either of them is behind you right now? Even if they both have Ax this is likely to be your last hand in a showdown against two of them.
Definite fold with 13BB to continue playing.

Steve

Do you listen and believe every time someone says they have a hand? If that was the case, then why limp to start with?

It's either, shove or fold pre-flop, there is no other play available to be honest.

What do you mean "definite fold with 13BB to continue playing"?

As the hand was played and all the action come the turn, yes a fold is correct I'm thinking, but pre-flop no.

You probably would have won this hand if you had shoved pre-flop.

What do you think MP1 and MP2 are limping with? Pre-flop, your A8 may well be the best hand here. With the relative stack sizes, you still have significant fold equity but that won't be the case for much longer. There is enough money there that you should have tried to scoop the pot pre-flop. Assuming that your image is OK, MP2 would almost certainly have folded if your read on him is correct.

Your decision to merely check the flop rather than lead out also illustrates the problem with playing a ragged Ace out of position pre-flop so passively. It is difficult to continue in the hand even though you now have top pair.

Despite the fact that you have top pair and fourth pair on the turn, too many hands that MP2 might have are ahead of you. I think your fold here was correct.

He's not desperate, he still has enough chips left to fold this hand.

Isn't that what I said?

Steve

I think he's confused by the fact that you said that Hero had 13BBs left when he decided to fold. Hero had 13BBs before the hand was dealt but only 12BBs on the turn because it cost him 1BB to limp pre-flop.

"He" is you isn't it?...Anyway not that it matters but anyway, it is never a definite fold in that spot with one limper and 6k in the pot. It's a shove preflop and yes he/you is very desperate, there is zero play left for you to see a flop. Checking in the BB is "ok" if you really want (I'd sooner shove and have fold equity) but not calling 1k into a 7k pot with only 23k ish left in chips. I certainly wouldn't be calling nearly 10% of my stack in the small blind just to see a flop and then to check/fold the turn.

All I'm saying, the way the hand was played, yeah a standard easy fold with the given action, not really a big fold, two pair on thats board is probably not good given the action you was faced.

I meant I think calling the SB is wrong at this point, the only play is shoving.

Shove preflop.

Seriously, why the heck are you limping in OOP with a 13 BB stack and 7k (or 6.5 BBs) in the pot? Get your 13 BB stack into the middle and pick up that pot. Your A8 is good enough to shove in against 2 limpers and a random BB hand and if you get called, just hope it holds up. Shoving is good because you pick up the pot most of the time and it's a decent hand heads-up if you get called. Considering stack sizes, they probably aren't calling shoves to lightly.

Was it a good fold? Yes, considering the situation. Was is a good play overall? Not at all. You should'n't have been in the 'should I fold here' analysis in the first place.

As for the person who said '13 BBs is enough to continue playing'...play how? Fold, fold, fold, and wait for a big hand? Maybe limp/fold a few times? If OP isn't shoving with A8 here, what range is he shoving? It must be higher, then and if it's higher-it's a much tighter range and if it's a much tighter range-then he is folding more hands and if he is folding more hands with 13 BBs-then he is playing way too tight. What you're saying is 'He has 13 BBs, he has enough to fold and continue to be the shortstack and maybe double up sometime if he gets lucky.' What others are saying is 'This is the perfect opportunity to get your money in and increase your stack.' Does it really matter if he bust out as the short stack now with a decent shoving hand or later? No. Does it matter if he shoves A8 now or A8 later in the tournament? Very much so.

I would have been all in pre flop and taken my chances. Likelyhood is the limpers would have folded and if one of them called you still had a decent chance to double up. Letting it get as far as it got means you are almost certainly chasing outs and second if not third favorite.

Good fold

Steve922 is not the OP.

Anyway, shove or fold preflop. As played fold the turn.

well the hand is played badly, preflop it's shove or fold,
But we limp and we do hit top pair and now we check why check when we hit ?? this is awfull.
there you really have to think what was you hoping for on the flop ? if you play a hand like A8 you can't check when you hit unless you hit it very hard..

If u hit flop hard out of blinds in multiway pot it's still good to bet. Never slow play hands. Punish limpers.

Maybe his 'plan' was to crai on the flop?

Good fold, But you also had a couple of options.
1. Shove pre-flop.
2. Make a move on the flop while you have top pair, and find out where you stand.

ya go for a crai on a drawing flop... and not let those who want to draw out on him pay, think that is a plan, after all all it is a plan... and a bad plan is better than no plan at all.
Anyway OP loses only 1000 in chips and all agree the fold after turn was right (even thou we don't have info about the other players or what BI we're talking about), so no harm done, btw. did he win the tourny ??

[quote=spunka;1759195]ya go for a crai on a drawing flop... and not let those who want to draw out on him pay, think that is a plan, after all all it is a plan... and a bad plan is better than no plan at all.
quote]
Vs a player like yourself, pretty sure I'd be check-raising allin here all day long, knowing you'll bet this flop all day long in a multi-way flop, lol. (also many will be leading big draws here anyways).
Pretty sure if you read my post you'll see it says > maybe his 'plan' was to crai (wasn't my suggestion... I wasn't on the table & have no reads if there's uber-aggro donks on the table)

With your remaining BB's, plus antes, plus limps, it would have been nice to shove preflop here, put pressure on your opponents, hopefully get all to fold.
If called, you still have good hand to double up.

[quote=Poker Orifice;1766588]You're absolutley right IT might have been his plan, and I am just stating it's nice that he might have had a plan.
And no I wasn't on THAT table and I dont think I would have folded after all i am there to play if not on that table then on another, so you're right in you thinking I would have played that nice hand with much more aggro in it, both pre flop and post turn after all 2 pair are not that bad.
And we never know wich aggro Donk that sits on the BB
Fun aside I like you too and misses our FT games

I think you played it right. I don't like a pre-flop shove in that situation.

i think you played it exactly right

you can't really shove A8o with 2 limpers ... they could easily be limping waiting on your short stack shove

you were getting a decent price to complete your blind (8:1) and see a flop ... sometimes in tourneys like this you do have to pull the handle on the slot machine esp. when you have an A

of course, the A-rag bit you as it often does ... it may have been just draws you were up against, but how sick would you have been if you called/shoved vs. trips or a better A there ... how much longer did you last in tourney?

how can you think this hand was played "exactly right'
you have a 2% chance of floping 2 pair , so the 8:1 odds are not enough , infact you would need 49:1 if you were calling for that reason
secondly hero hits top pair and then checks ? what is he hoping for?
calling is the exactly worst play here imo, it is the best way to bleed your stack to the point where you lose all fold equity or you bleed your stack to the point where a double up is meanigless because you will be still short stacked.
push > fold > call in that order best play imo
as played good fold

you've got implied odds as well

and while you dont have an 8 to 1 chance of making a winning hand, you do have a way better chance than 49:1, pairing the A is a winning hand more times than not there ... if hero is not SB, then i totally agree ... limping with A8o is stack bleeding behavior, but 8:1 price in the SB ... IMO ... i think it is a more than reasonable play when you factor everything in ... afterall we are talking 4% of his total stack ... when can you be short stacked and only have to put in 4% of your stack to see a flop when you are holding an A?? ... that is a bargain

reading it again, i realize now that the betting action occurred on the turn, not the flop ... i could see him checking the flop and maybe looking to check/shove, but he should have bet out on the turn with top pair and nobody betting the flop, so i withdraw that he played it exactly right

anyway, good debate ... ha, i cant play poker at work, but talking about it does hold me over

dont know what your definition of deep is and where the tourney was at but if you were even close to cashing i would of shoved pre flop hoping no callers of course at that point and just to get the blinds and antes and to take advantage of the the players playing tight hoping to survive into the money but thats just my thinking
Steve

gf since you didnt commit yourself, but next hand you play you gotta raise or fold no limps and get some good blinds and antes and get it in good

o defintely fold.......just wait for a better spot...first of all you shouldnt have limped with ace8 off with that short of a stack.....you shove ace j may call and you got lucky and hit two pair and the drawing hands that would have limped wouldnt have called then you didnt shove when you hit your ace....so fold after two missteps that wouldve won you the pot

Shove or fold. You know that further betting is going to take you to or past 50% forcing you to push or fold with a very small stack. Seeing that ahead of the flop gives you a proper choice,

Shove pre.
Turn looks like a standard fold.