Any advice for building a bankroll on a small deposit?

#1 24th March 2012, 11:32 PM

I'm going to start playing in $2-$5 online sit-n-gos at Lock Poker on an initial deposit of about $25. I was wondering if it's possible to build a decent bankroll off of this ($200-$300 or so) with proper strategy and patience, and if so, can anyone offer advice in this regard to maximize my chance of securing my ROI?

I learned a lot of my hold'em strategies from TurtleKnife on YouTube (Marty Smith), and practiced in play-money tournaments for three years now. I've won a 180-player sit n go and placed 55th in a 7000-player tournament, so I think I have at least a basic grasp of pro strategy (and I play very tight until the ITM stages) but I'm always up for advice from the pros.

Thanks guys.

#2 25th March 2012, 2:46 AM

Possible ? Sure but you are truly at the whim of variance in as much as one bad run along with the rake can break you fairly quick.If you don't mind reloading and play a sound game you will eventually run it up. (a good run initially will preclude any need to reload , just seems a likely event with such a small amount). Good luck.

#3 25th March 2012, 2:51 AM

Yeah its possible.
You need to be a bit lucky initially as 25$ is not enough for good bankroll management.
As for the other question, pick the game you want to play and are good at, and play well.
Good play is always awarded over time.
Aint no real secret, just grind.

#4 25th March 2012, 3:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spstevens

Possible ? Sure but you are truly at the whim of variance in as much as one bad run along with the rake can break you fairly quick.If you don't mind reloading and play a sound game you will eventually run it up. (a good run initially will preclude any need to reload , just seems a likely event with such a small amount). Good luck.

I played freeplay tournaments on Pokerstars for about 3 years now, entirely sit-n-gos and NL hold'em tournaments (9-player tables), and I have around a 75% ITM rate. Although that's probably because there aren't any experienced players in the freerollers department. Mostly a lot of Russians who go all in with any 2 cards.

My strategy is pretty sound though. I think I'm what's known as a TAG player (tight-aggressive).

#5 25th March 2012, 3:59 AM

you have a chance, but it will be complete luck.

Not only do you need to be as good as you think you are (you might be), but you need good variance on top of that.

Also play money does not equal real money. The play will be tougher (especially since we don't know the stakes you played on play money)

My advice.

Well first I would tell you to deposit more, but.....

Go ahead, test the waters for real money, play this as an experiment. See how well you do, come back here for improvement,. Even the best need improvement (which, not to bring you down, your not the best)

#6 25th March 2012, 4:16 AM

just save up?

or play smaller.

guessing that you've played sngs so you know what variance is like.

one cooler/suckout/bad play and you've lost 1/5 of your roll.

save up and deposit like $100 minimum and play the smallest games possible..

that way you won't go broke.

(also use a deposit bonus/rakeback)

#7 25th March 2012, 5:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound3857

I played freeplay tournaments on Pokerstars for about 3 years now, entirely sit-n-gos and NL hold'em tournaments (9-player tables), and I have around a 75% ITM rate. Although that's probably because there aren't any experienced players in the freerollers department. Mostly a lot of Russians who go all in with any 2 cards.

My strategy is pretty sound though. I think I'm what's known as a TAG player (tight-aggressive).

When I wished you good luck in my reply it was meant in a friendly way , you will find money games quite a bit different as there won't be the easy double ups from the loose ATC plays nearly as frequently. Alot of people have built stacks from nothing or very small deposits , myself included . That being said it is not a cake walk grind , grind , grind and a fair amount of luck in the begining as one bad run or a tilt can destroy your roll entirely.

#8 25th March 2012, 6:13 AM

The advice to start slightly smaller $1-2 level and see how you do is good advice.
If you place ITM in three consecutive tourneys move up a level and repeat the process.
This will reduce your variance until you have a stack size that you don't have to worry and teach you about how play changes from level to level.

#9 25th March 2012, 3:00 PM

How much is your entire bankroll? This means all the money you are willing to use for poker no matter where it is (including still in your pocket), not just what you have on one site. To play at a given level, your roll should be at least 20 buyins. So for $5.50 games, at least $110. For $2.20s, at least $44. And note that 20x is a minimum, so 30x would be better.

If all you have is $25, then your choices are limited to $1 buyins.

#10 26th March 2012, 3:43 AM

Seems I do suck quite bad. I've blown $20 out of my $25 deposit, and now my dad is mad at me for even trying this (I'm 23, but I live at home since I'm in college, and he thinks someone is gonna steal all my money from my account now that I used it to make a deposit).

Some were bad beats, some suckouts, some bad plays. All were learning experiences, but I feel like I'm getting nowhere, and this might not work out for me.

Man...

#11 26th March 2012, 4:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound3857

I'm going to start playing in $2-$5 online sit-n-gos at Lock Poker on an initial deposit of about $25. I was wondering if it's possible to build a decent bankroll off of this ($200-$300 or so) with proper strategy and patience, and if so, can anyone offer advice in this regard to maximize my chance of securing my ROI?

I learned a lot of my hold'em strategies from TurtleKnife on YouTube (Marty Smith), and practiced in play-money tournaments for three years now. I've won a 180-player sit n go and placed 55th in a 7000-player tournament, so I think I have at least a basic grasp of pro strategy (and I play very tight until the ITM stages) but I'm always up for advice from the pros.

Thanks guys.

Don't play tournaments, huge variance. Profitable players grind $2-$5 sng's at about 50% ROI; and you're bankroll is too low for those stakes. Move down, way down, to 2c cash and max 50c sng's. Grind your way up to about $100 (should take a month or two) then start add a couple of 1.10 tournaments. No more unless you can satty in. A 30% ROI with an In the Money percentage of around 50% will get you about 1k pretty quickly (and by pretty quickly, I mean after about a month or so). Once you have that, move up to 10nl; where you'll start making a bit more money. Move up/down dependent on how much you lose/win. Very important: don't do what I do, which is come home from a bad day and tilt-spew off your entire bankroll playing 25nl. Also, if you're in uni, do not, do not, I repeat do not play after going to a house party/rave. Never ends well.

Good luck at the felt.

Quote:

Seems I do suck quite bad. I've blown $20 out of my $25 deposit, and now my dad is mad at me for even trying this (I'm 23, but I live at home since I'm in college, and he thinks someone is gonna steal all my money from my account now that I used it to make a deposit).

Some were bad beats, some suckouts, some bad plays. All were learning experiences, but I feel like I'm getting nowhere, and this might not work out for me.

Man...

Missed this.

Ban yourself from the tables for a month, read all the articles on this site on poker strategy. Then, when you feel you understand, and after the ban, log back in and deposit another 20. Play 1c/2c, no more, no less, and make sure not to budge an inch from those stakes until you're in profit. Post hand histories on this site; there are a lot of reg's who will give you pretty detailed analysis of where/when/how you went wrong.

Also, a large part of the reason why you're losing is because you've only played play money before. Play money is godawful for learning real poker, case in point, play money: I'm up 3 million; real money, down £30.00

#12 26th March 2012, 4:26 AM

Yeah, I'm gonna start posting some of my more questionable hands here and see what I'm doing wrong, where I can improve, etc. I think I'm being too aggressive in the early stages, so that's something to work on right there. Some of the players are nice and give me advice mid-game.

And thanks for the advice. I've got $5 left on this deposit (I might deposit another $40 later after I've done more research), so I'm gonna try some 0.50c + 0.10c SnG's and see if I can grind this back up.

Should I play 9-player SnG's or are 18's, 27's, and 45's okay too?

#13 26th March 2012, 4:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound3857

Yeah, I'm gonna start posting some of my more questionable hands here and see what I'm doing wrong, where I can improve, etc. I think I'm being too aggressive in the early stages, so that's something to work on right there. Some of the players are nice and give me advice mid-game.

And thanks for the advice. I've got $5 left on this deposit (I might deposit another $40 later after I've done more research), so I'm gonna try some 0.50c + 0.10c SnG's and see if I can grind this back up.

Should I play 9-player SnG's or are 18's, 27's, and 45's okay too?

Fold pre. Like I said, ban yourself for a month, read up on things, basic things. Bet sizing, hand selection, basic positional awareness; then come back and deposit again. $5.00 is **** all tbh. You can easily loose 5.00 in one session playing good poker at the micros. Read up, get better, then deposit again.

#14 26th March 2012, 5:09 AM

If I lose this $5, I will definitely ban myself and research until my brain swells. But I'm taking your advice playing in some 0.60c SnG's tonight, and I'm actually finishing in the money on this one. Thanks for the suggestion, I was wondering what people meant by grind and variance, now I know.

#15 26th March 2012, 7:44 AM

Took your hand advice, played a little more aggressively with marginal hands, and won my first SnG (a $1.10 BI, won $4.50).

#16 26th March 2012, 9:20 AM

I would not suggest playing that high with just a $300 deposit. I would only be playing 10nl. But of course i would be multi tabling, but good luck.

#17 26th March 2012, 10:07 PM

Thats too high for your bankroll, variance could wipe you out in a flash. Jim is right..10nl should be your max. Free money play is an indicator of nothing. You sound like you have the basics but so don't a zillion other players. Slow your roll dude...thats something my kid might say and he would be right.

#18 26th March 2012, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carmine

Thats too high for your bankroll, variance could wipe you out in a flash. Jim is right..10nl should be your max. Free money play is an indicator of nothing. You sound like you have the basics but so don't a zillion other players. Slow your roll dude...thats something my kid might say and he would be right.

I've been playing nothing but $0.60 SnG's today and I've had a consistent ITM rate. I was at $5 this morning, over $11 now.

doomasiggys advice was very helpful; I'm getting the hang of this now.

#19 26th March 2012, 10:39 PM

Just follow good BRM and stay at the $1 or less range of SNGs until you are well over $100. On Merge you could play the $.60 Turbo or preferably the $1.08 DON SNG. Might want to avoid long shot tournaments. By all means don't feed a dead horse. Especially on that terrible poker network.

#20 27th March 2012, 3:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound3857

I've been playing nothing but $0.60 SnG's today and I've had a consistent ITM rate. I was at $5 this morning, over $11 now.

doomasiggys advice was very helpful; I'm getting the hang of this now.

That's what you should be doing...60-cent Single SnG's until you at least get your intitial deposit back...then don't go any higher than $1 SnG's

Also play as many freerolls as possible to get more experience

After you double up your deposit and play close to 10K hands then you can look to step up and try higher-priced SnGs and tourneys

This is how I play as well...it works if you have the patience and discipline...all these tools are necessary so when you fall into slumps you can get through the rough patches

There's a ton of information and support here...use it

Online poker has always been a different game from playing live, imo...joining this site has helped me a lot since I started playing online after a 5-6 year hiatus

If I had today's experience years ago.....fuggedaboutit*

Everyone has more or less been in your shoes, in fact I'm still running around in mine....you'll see my threads are quite similar to your questions as well, and there are plenty of other threads you can read to improve

Godd Luck to you

#21 27th March 2012, 4:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie Leeway

That's what you should be doing...60-cent Single SnG's until you at least get your intitial deposit back...then don't go any higher than $1 SnG's

Also play as many freerolls as possible to get more experience

After you double up your deposit and play close to 10K hands then you can look to step up and try higher-priced SnGs and tourneys

This is how I play as well...it works if you have the patience and discipline...all these tools are necessary so when you fall into slumps you can get through the rough patches

There's a ton of information and support here...use it

Online poker has always been a different game from playing live, imo...joining this site has helped me a lot since I started playing online after a 5-6 year hiatus

If I had today's experience years ago.....fuggedaboutit*

Everyone has more or less been in your shoes, in fact I'm still running around in mine....you'll see my threads are quite similar to your questions as well, and there are plenty of other threads you can read to improve

Godd Luck to you

Thank you sir. Sitting on about half my initial deposit right now, so I got my work cut out for me. If I somehow make it up to double my deposit, I'll move up to $1.10 SnG's.

And yeah, I'm playing all the freeroll tourneys I can. Usually 2 or 3 a day.

#22 27th March 2012, 5:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound3857

Sitting on about half my initial deposit right now, so I got my work cut out for me. If I somehow make it up to double my deposit, I'll move up to $1.10 SnG's.

If you do well in these and do make it to $50 I would still keep playing lower stakes. Whilst it is possible to move up with that roll, it is also possible to lose it quicker, not because the play is so much better but just because, you are once again, trying to work with fewer buy-ins. If you have just changed to real money from play money give your self some time to get used to the play and players.
I would say stick with the lower stakes and enjoy having more buy-ins and greater protection against the variance that you will encounter. Its very likely that you will have some long runs of losing games, no matter how well you play. It helps a lot if you don't lose half your roll when that happens.

I wish you luck

#23 27th March 2012, 9:09 PM

Well, I won the first SnG this morning, but now I've had a string of losses, about 6 of them, all from bad beats. I'm getting really tilted at all the suckouts.

Should I be calling/raising at all with marginal hands like AJ, KQ, etc, or should I just fold anything that's not a pocket pair?

#24 28th March 2012, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound3857

Well, I won the first SnG this morning, but now I've had a string of losses, about 6 of them, all from bad beats. I'm getting really tilted at all the suckouts.

Should I be calling/raising at all with marginal hands like AJ, KQ, etc, or should I just fold anything that's not a pocket pair?

This should help

#25 28th March 2012, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaw

The advice to start slightly smaller $1-2 level and see how you do is good advice.
Yes! good advice ^ (but not to 'see how you do'... merely because your bankroll of $25 (or 12-20 buyins) is nowhere near large enough to cover yourself for inevitable swings (variance)
If you place ITM in three consecutive tourneys move up a level and repeat the process.
Absolutely NO!!! imo, this ^ is terrible advice. You need those 3 wins to pad your bankroll so you'll be able to weather the storm (as variance is inevitable).

READ THIS > It is not uncommon for even the VERY BEST online SNG (STT) players to easily go without cashing for 10 consecutive games (I'm talking the Phil Ivey's of micro & low buyin STT-SNG play, guys who play these games in their sleep). It is not only 'not uncommon', it is 'normal'.
This will reduce your variance until you have a stack size that you don't have to worry and teach you about how play changes from level to level.

last sentence is pointless & meaningless (w/o value) imo. You move up to a higher level when your bankroll can afford it & you stay there if you're able to win at that level (& your bankroll continues to support it)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjonius

How much is your entire bankroll? This means all the money you are willing to use for poker no matter where it is (including still in your pocket), not just what you have on one site. To play at a given level, your roll should be at least 20 buyins. So for $5.50 games, at least $110. For $2.20s, at least $44. And note that 20x is a minimum, so 30x would be better.

If all you have is $25, then your choices are limited to $1 buyins.

This ^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound3857

Seems I do suck quite bad. I've blown $20 out of my $25 deposit,
this doesn't necessarily mean anything at all. It's very easy to lose 5 games w/o cashing (read above, 10+ in-a-row w/o cashing is not uncommon). Although, you likely aren't quite as good as you may have assumed.

Some were bad beats, some suckouts, some bad plays. All were learning experiences, but I feel like I'm getting nowhere, and this might not work out for me.

Man...

You might not have what it takes to play the pokerzz. There'll be times when you'll have 300 game stretches where you're losing money (even for winning players,... players who've studied ALOT & have played ALOT of volume)

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomasiggy

Don't play tournaments, huge variance. Profitable players grind $2-$5 sng's at about 50% ROI; < this is entirely INCORRECT!!! I doubt anyone playing SNG's has an ROI of +50% (although there may be some MTT-SNG playing the 45's who are close & maybe some that are an exception). Winning SNG-STT (single table tournament) players have an ITM (in the money) of ~39%-42% & ROI will range from ~+1% - +10% (for winning players... in micro/low stakes some winning players will have slightly higher ROI% but not mugh higher. Med. & HS SNG, winning players more typically have ROI +1% to +3%) and you're bankroll is too low for those stakes. Move down, way down, to 2c cash and max 50c sng's. Grind your way up to about $100 (should take a month or two) then start add a couple of 1.10 tournaments. No more unless you can satty in. A 30% ROI with an In the Money percentage of around 50% will get you about 1k pretty quickly (and by pretty quickly, I mean after about a month or so). < doubt anyone maintains a 50% ITM at SNG-STT over any kind of half-decent sample size. Once you have that, move up to 10nl; where you'll start making a bit more money. Move up/down dependent on how much you lose/win. Very important: don't do what I do, which is come home from a bad day and tilt-spew off your entire bankroll playing 25nl. Also, if you're in uni, do not, do not, I repeat do not play after going to a house party/rave. Never ends well.

Good luck at the felt.

Missed this.

Ban yourself from the tables for a month, read all the articles on this site on poker strategy. Then, when you feel you understand, and after the ban, log back in and deposit another 20. Play 1c/2c, no more, no less, and make sure not to budge an inch from those stakes until you're in profit. Post hand histories on this site; there are a lot of reg's who will give you pretty detailed analysis of where/when/how you went wrong.
Banning yourself for a month just sounds ridiculous imo (for OP anyways). Spending an entire month just on studying/reading will be close to useless (imo) as your head will be overfilled with info. & will have you confused in a big way. Ideally you want to be playing & studying. And at first you'll probably want to split this time up maybe 2/3 to 3/4 of the time playing, 1/4 to 1/3 of the time studying/reading (< & even that will be overdoing the studying part imo).
Find a decent book & read it. Play some pokerzz.
Then if playing STT-SNG, pick up Collin Moshmann's SNG Strategy book. Read a bit... play some more. Read a bit more... play some more (& so on).

Stick to one type of format (good one to start out with is 9plyr. SNG's). Also, if you've been reading (or watching) a bunch of Marty's stuff then you'll have some understanding of the basics (although I can't say I agree with all of his play). Moshmann's book will turn you into a winning player in the micros for sure! (it'll pay for itself... & maybe you can pick it up from the library?)
Also, a large part of the reason why you're losing is because you've only played play money before. Play money is godawful for learning real poker, case in point, play money: I'm up 3 million; real money, down £30.00

Pretty hard to say why OP is losing when we haven't seen or witnessed any of their play (& sounds like a REALLY small sample size!!!). I'd assume that they're more likely playing too tight in mid-late levels (when they should often be open-shoving). Another possibility is they're 'calling OOP in mid-late spots where they should be rrai or folding. (< another common error by newer players to SNGs)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound3857

Yeah, I'm gonna start posting some of my more questionable hands here and see what I'm doing wrong, where I can improve, etc. I think I'm being too aggressive in the early stages, so that's something to work on right there. Some of the players are nice and give me advice mid-game.

And thanks for the advice. I've got $5 left on this deposit (I might deposit another $40 later after I've done more research), so I'm gonna try some 0.50c + 0.10c SnG's and see if I can grind this back up.

Should I play 9-player SnG's or are 18's, 27's, and 45's okay too?

Stick to one format (for awhile). I'd suggest the 9plyr. games at first. I'd also recommend starting out on 'regular' speed & to be avoiding turbos.

gl

#26 28th March 2012, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

< this is entirely INCORRECT!!! I doubt anyone playing SNG's has an ROI of +50% (although there may be some MTT-SNG playing the 45's who are close & maybe some that are an exception). Winning SNG-STT (single table tournament) players have an ITM (in the money) of ~39%-42% & ROI will range from ~+1% - +10% (for winning players... in micro/low stakes some winning players will have slightly higher ROI% but not mugh higher. Med. & HS SNG, winning players more typically have ROI +1% to +3%)

Ahar10 and ChewMe1 have ROI's for STT's in the 50% range; and the OP wasn't talking about HS SNG.

Quote:

Banning yourself for a month just sounds ridiculous imo (for OP anyways). Spending an entire month just on studying/reading will be close to useless (imo) as your head will be overfilled with info. & will have you confused in a big way. Ideally you want to be playing & studying. And at first you'll probably want to split this time up maybe 2/3 to 3/4 of the time playing, 1/4 to 1/3 of the time studying/reading (< & even that will be overdoing the studying part imo).
Find a decent book & read it. Play some pokerzz.

When he's making basic mistakes and just spewed off 20 dollars, you think maybe he needs to study the basics?

Quote:

[b][i]Pretty hard to say why OP is losing when we haven't seen or witnessed any of their play

I was trying to say he'd get better as he played real money. If you go straight from playing play money and move to real money, you lose, a lot, because you have no idea what you're doing.

#27 29th March 2012, 3:00 AM

And I think I am getting better. I'm still taking some bad beats and making mistakes, but I'm learning the hard way what I did wrong and know better now. I'm still hovering around $12.50.

Would I be okay adding in $0.30 tourneys into the mix? I think they're called quarter quickies.

#28 29th March 2012, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomasiggy

When he's making basic mistakes and just spewed off 20 dollars, you think maybe he needs to study the basics?
Not necessarily, especially seeing as he was playing buyins too high for his bankroll.

If you go straight from playing play money and move to real money, you lose, a lot, because you have no idea what you're doing.

I disagree. Why do we assume this? I know many people who were never losing players right from the start.

#29 29th March 2012, 3:29 PM

I have never deposited on any poker site except to qualify for cashout and I have won thousands.
one April weekend I had a nickel on Intertops and
in three days I won $1350. My advice to you is
to play within your means and when your hot, don't stop playing till you cool down. If you don't cash in 3 in a row in a single day quit for the day.
Patience patience patience
P.S. raising with KJ early position will cost you money

#30 29th March 2012, 3:43 PM

My best advice ... Don't lose.

#31 29th March 2012, 4:04 PM

foxhound, with your small bankroll, i would suggest not to play any MTT's other than freerolls

variance at SnG's can sometimes be tough, but variance at MTT's can be huge, you might go hundreds of tournies without a good cash even if your phil ivey

stick to your 9 man SnG's only, that way your improving all the time, with less risk to your bankroll

#32 29th March 2012, 6:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karkus77

foxhound, with your small bankroll, i would suggest not to play any MTT's other than freerolls

variance at SnG's can sometimes be tough, but variance at MTT's can be huge, you might go hundreds of tournies without a good cash even if your phil ivey

stick to your 9 man SnG's only, that way your improving all the time, with less risk to your bankroll

good advice ..... I'd add, maybe try some small DON SnGs and play TIGHT & AGGRESSIVE especially paying specific attention to 3 things: POSITION, different stages of the game, and "reads on player's tendencies".

#33 29th March 2012, 10:42 PM

Well, that was interesting. I was down to my last $6 so I decided to just play one bigshot, a 6-man $5.50 SnG. Somehow I survived with my 55 against AA and caught runner-runner to make a straight, and ended up winning the thing. So I'm back to my starting bankroll of $25.

So...what should I do?

#34 29th March 2012, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound3857

Well, that was interesting. I was down to my last $6 so I decided to just play one bigshot, a 6-man $5.50 SnG. Somehow I survived with my 55 against AA and caught runner-runner to make a straight, and ended up winning the thing. So I'm back to my starting bankroll of $25.

So...what should I do?

Don't do this again.

#35 14th April 2012, 7:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound3857

Well, that was interesting. I was down to my last $6 so I decided to just play one bigshot, a 6-man $5.50 SnG. Somehow I survived with my 55 against AA and caught runner-runner to make a straight, and ended up winning the thing. So I'm back to my starting bankroll of $25.

So...what should I do?

Well don't do that again if you can possibly resist, we don't want this thread to end with a post about going bust!

Stick to the sng's as that is what you know best.
Stick to low buy-ins, < $1 (imo preferably lower, Chris Ferguson may have used a 20 buy-in rule, but don't forget... He's Chris Ferguson!! Mere mortals who are just starting out need more buy-ins). As we have said, and you now know first hand, it is perfectly possible to have a losing streak even if you have been winning, so you need the buffer of reserve buy-ins.

Play one table at a time, (don't play any if you are tired or unable to concentrate), concentrate on the game—no distractions, and watch how your opponents are playing even when you are not involved in a hand. Play good hands from late positions, and then go from there as you learn more about your opponents.

BRM is the most important thing. If you get down to $6 again, play 10c games if you can find them on Lock. You don't need a fast profit at this stage, you need practice to improve your understanding of the game. Only if you have the money to play, can you keep practicing and improving.

Good Luck

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