A7 on flop A74 what would you do?

$130 live event no limit holdem (max entrants 80 -70 left)
blind level increase every 20m starting stack 10k
blinds 200/400

UTG 12k
UTG+ 2 4k
Co 8k
Hero BTN 13.5 Ad7h
SB 12k
BB 8.5k

Preflop UTG limps 200 ,UTG+1 limps 200, CO limps 200, BTN limps 200,
SB limps100, BB checks
Flop Ah 7s 4s (pot 1200)
UTG bets 800 action folds to hero who raises 2400, SB BB fold , UTG calls
Turn Qh (pot 4800) UTG checks , hero bets 4600 , UTG calls
river 10d (pot 14k) UTG goes all in for remaining 5k
Do you call or fold ?

sorry pot on turn is 6000k not 4800

pot on river 15k

I would have shoved turn... I honestly don't know what I will do because I avoid getting into those tricky spots.... He could have a missed flush draw, or he may have hit the nuts with KJs..

I raise and take it down preflop

Does not compute

this is a live tournament, how about some reads ffs.

sorry had kids screaming and made few mistakes typing post
blinds 100/200
reads - no reads on UTG as just joined table , after made all in bet reached for his beer and takes a drink , didnt show great deal of confidance

I would have put in a massive raise with 2 pair, ace and any picture could pair up.

Ya but don't you want some value for that hand? A massive raise only scares ppl from calling correct? A raise sure a Really Big Raise, I'm not too sure on that

I fold pre

If you bet for more than a third of your remaining chips on the turn you should go all in. If he calls on the turn and bets the river you almost have to call. If he had a flush draw all in would price him out; and you want him to call with smaller two pair. dought he had aq becuase he limped. becuase he called a huge raise with bad pot odds out of position on the flop im guessing he has a set or AsXs. I might have wanted to check the turn hoping he would thin value bet the river or bluff into me and just call not that i like giving free cards but sometimes its better to play it safe. If you checked the turn they probably wouldn't overbet for value. Fold pre flop would have been better.

So the pots 15k, he bets 5k (20k pot now) so you get 4:1. This is a must call. Flush draws missed, 56 missed, he check/called the turn. Doesn't have to be bluffing often to make this call good, and you have him covered.

I agree with this ^^

Barring any crazy reads, this has to be a call as played, right?

You think he'll be bluffing when he knows you've got a strong hand? w/o reads it's a weird spot... villain only 'calls' turn (would they just 'call' turn with a set?)... does he actually shove river with missed FD when it's doubtful that OP is ever finding a fold?

imo, villain has 44, OP calls.. sees the set, thinks 'fml... could I have played this differently?' & posts hand in forum.

there's a big CALL there..nice way to double your stack

To me it looks either desperate or value town. With the odds we have though and we have him covered, we have to call imo.

Buster you on the money , the turn bet should have been allin as I was comitting too much of my stack putting myself in a ****ed up spot on the river.
The bet initself was enough to deny a flush draw the expressed odds, but two smaller pair calling here imo. On the turn I put villan on Ax (but not AQ)
or two smaller pair. I dont know about checking on the turn and not charging the flush draw, because you still leave yourself in a difficult situation
on the river and gain no info . villan checking the turn and then only calling doesnt really make sense with a set as he probably would be protecting
his hand with the huge pot, right? When villan shoved the rest of his chips on the river , i went into the tank for sometime and said I think I just got
rivered , so if I went with my fealing I could have gotten away from this hand and still had chips , I guess what threw me off was the attractive pot odds
and because i havent seen villan at the casino before so he wasnt a local and the fact he reached for his beer created an image of villan as loose
drunk. So I take all you advise that pre flop fold a better choice here. Although Dont the 6-1 pot odds ever get tempting for anyone the button ?
Thanks for the input. I called the river bet, villan shows As 10s and takes down the pot with two higher pair.

why do we want him to fold flush draws?

There is no tricky spot on the river here, as played when we be the turn we're committed, so essentially the key decisions are flop and turn right?

^^^ This.

As played, no way you can fold river. I actually don't mind this at all. I would have bet closer to 2/3pot on turn, and call a river shove / put him all in if he checks.

Looks like he missed the draw or has a pair of As w/ a better kicker. Might show up with AT or a set sometimes.

No way you can fold anywhere in this pot, though. How can you fold pre when it limps around to you on the BTN w/ A7? I don't mind a limp pre, and depending on table dynamics I like a raise pre on the BTN. We're definitely pot committed by the turn, and generally I'm not trying to fold flopped TOP 2 when he was unlikely to hit draws by the river (unless he is a nut and was chasing the backdoor gutshot).

Sorry, didn't realize i posted that^, meant to not post at all..

Hmmm I think your right about just folding this hand preflop! 6 to 1 sure why not but the guy would have called any huge raise on the flop because he had A10 when everyone limped! You have a lot of different options during every stage of the hand! However if you hit A7 ten flops in a row! He would not get that ten very often! You also had quite a few blind left to wait for better risk spots! Good luck in your next live play!

Winner.

I love how most people in this thread are debating the marginal decisions made on the later streets, but ignoring the massive spew preflop.

Allin on the turn or a massive bet on flop to scare him

Limping on the button 6-handed in a 6-way pot, at these stacks, with A7, is a massive spew? Not sure about that. You are getting 6-1 in position with Ace-mid kicker in a short-handed game.

You could give me 10:1, I don't think I'd limp in with A7. I think there's only one other hand (A6) that gives off more reverse implied odds in a limped pot.

Massive, massive spew. ESPECIALLY at these stacks.

Fold > Raise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Call in my opinion.

Especially at these stacks? 60bbs?! I respect your opinion, but if it is a spew, it is not massive at all. Can you show me potential ranges / math that says 6:1 is spewy, let alone 10:1?

If it was suited it has obviously much better expected value. But yeah, you should also read up on reverse implied odds which come into play a little bit here.

The main thing is that with a hand like A7off, what flops are we happy with? And what types of hands will we get paid off with in a big way?

Ask yourself these questions and think through it logically and you may have an answer as to why preflop odds are not worth anything here.

The only reason we are playing A7 here is to flop 2 pair and get it in vs something like A-T or AAx, 77x. As this won't happen often enough I think you need more than 6:1 to play this, but it's not terrible.

Since this happens about 5% of the time, you need 19:1 to play this...

Additionally, with our biggest effective stack at 30 big blinds deep (and two of them smaller than that), we have far less implied odds than you think.

And furthermore, think about the hands people play in limped pots. A7o flops like trash against small pairs, suited connectors. The only time they're going to put money in the pot against you is when they're putting you in a horrible RIO spot.

What we should be thinking about doing is raising big preflop to take the dead money the limpers are putting in the pot. I'd rather do that than call in a big way. Limping here is pure spew. I don't have math to back me up, because doing it would be REALLY long & complicated. But if you check hold'em manager and run a filter for when you play in spots like this, I'm sure its a horribly losing spot.

What you're looking at is the preflop play and going "oh, I'm only losing 400". But you're not! You're setting yourself up to be in a horrible spot postflop with a hand that doesn't make anything. This action sets yourself up to lose buckets on later streets. That's why its pure spew!

Yeh exactly if you don't flop the hands I said and flop and A or 7 as top pair you've got huge RIO

Not to mention it might be difficult to lay down an A or 7 on what might seem a safe looking board.

yeah limping pre is terribad

as played call river

Yeah I stay away from ace mid. Even in position what are you going to do if a ace hits the flop. You have no info on other players because of the family limp. Stay away stay far away.

Id say the guy may have limped with small pair say 4s or 7s have you beat kj could be a possibillity.....ace 10 also could be one......ace q wouldve raised along with queens or aces so those are out of the equation for me......flop...bet the call a raise....id say a set....maybe 4s or 7s after button reraises he doesnt have a draw...you would reraise with an ace or even two pair to get rid of the draws...so button doesnt have one qh on turn great card for set...checks hoping button has ace and button bets and is called by set...river...allin hopin to represent a missed flush trying to buy pot....id fold two pair because the guy has a set of 4s

Did you limp with your A7 ? If you did, you shouldn't do that. Push all-in on turn..