The 7 stages to a Turbo STT.

I keep hearing about STT's defined in three easy stages, Early/middle/late. Well, if you want to get good at them, there are actually quite a few more stages we need to look at closer. I guess this is a mini guide about the 7 differant stages of a STT, and get some conversation started about the topic. Also putting stuff to 'paper' helps me to go over stuff in my head. And if it looks wrong when i write it down, it usually is. Feel free to add to any of this, and point out if you think i'm wrong .


Early game (Blinds 10/20 - 15/30)
So generally playing fairly tight, but implied odds hands such as pocket pairs and suited connectors can also be played in these stages. We're generally either betting hard and fast with our big hands, or getting in cheap and flopping something neat with our smaller hands. The name of the game is aggression postflop, the biggest leak i see in bad regulars is a lack of postflop aggression, it just costs you value in the long run.

Mid game (Blinds 25/50 - 100/200)
Here we amp up our aggression preflop some more. Our most profitable moves, or the moves we make most of our equity are:-

Re-stealing or 3bet shoving.
Calling all in shoves.
We also pick up a decent amount of equity from stealing blinds.

So why are the first two the most profitable ones? Well they are the ones we play our biggest pots in. When we play in a big pot, our equity dramatically changes in a tournament. When we steal the blinds, our equity doesn't change a great deal.


Late game with 9-7 players left (100/200 - Bubble)
So with 9 players left, we can actually take more of a risk, as we are a long way from the bubble, but everyone is getting short. We don't mind getting called and playing in a big pot at this stage, having that big stack in a situation like this leads us to being able to take down many more pots in the future.

Late Game with 7-5 players left (100/200 - Bubble)
How this differs with less players left is that we need to tighten down our ranges, getting called at this stage is far worse than earlier. As the bubble is nearing, we should still be taking enough risks so we get to the bubble as an above average stack more often than not.

I feel it's important to split those two up, because the change in the ranges, while subtle are important to be able to adjust to. Shove wider with more players left, shove tighter with less.

So again, our most profitable moves in the later game are:-

Calling all in shoves.
Re-stealing.
Open shoving with stacks under 12BB effective.
Stealing blinds relentlessly against nits.


Finally, one last thing about you're stack size.

Playing an average starting stack/ short stack-. You can open your ranges up quite a bit when your on a shorter stack in the mid game, there is NO point getting to the bubble short. I'd much rather take on a shove, or call a shove in a marginal spot than get to the bubble as the shortstack. Whatever happens, don't blind out!

Playing a big stack- Here is one part a lot of people seem to get wrong in an STT during the mid-late game. When you aquire a big stack of chips, it is NOT your job to be table captain. We know that the chips gained on top of a big stack are worth less the more you get. So why are we getting involved in marginal situations? It sounds kind of funny, but when i get a big stack, i actually tighten down all my ranges, i don't get involved as much in re-stealing, but i look for good spots to just open shove on people. Of course i'm still calling shoves with very strong hands, but the marginal re-stealing spots i might let go.

Bubble (10/20-Infinity)
Bubble has nothing to do with how many chips you have. It has to do with how your stack relates to the other players.

Basically.

-When you are the chip leader you can shove the widest. If you're not a monster, but still the chipleader, it depends on your position and who you're shoving into. If you're a monster stacked chip leader (double chips of 2nd guy), you can often shove any cards from any position. If that makes you uncomfortable, leave out the junk at the bottom of the range, like the unsuited 2 hands up to about 92o. If the villian you're shoving into is 5BB's or less, you can expect the likelihood of getting called to go up, as his stack size goes down.


If your the shortstack, it has a lot to do with how your stack hurts the other villian. So if you have a stack very close to that of the villians, then you can shove very wide, almost ATC again. But if the villian has you covered considerably, then you need to tighten up a lot.


If your the middle guy, your in the most difficult position. You generally have to be the most risk averse player at the table. You can shove wider on a villian that you cover, but much tighter into a villina that has you covered. Also pay very close attention to other players tendancies and the stack sizes.


ITM
Heres another part many players get wrong. One of my biggest leaks in fact was my ITM shoving. Basically put, since we should have been extremely active, shoving in lots of spots in the mid-late-bubble game. We actually need to tighten down our ranges again. Also think of it like a "mini-bubble". We can treat it in a similar way to a normal bubble spot. THe stack size applies just like mentioned in bubble spots. We shove much wider into a guy we have covered than we can into a guy that covers us. You can also expect to get called a lot wider once ITM.

Heads up
Finally heads up. Generally in a turbo, the blinds are really really high at this stage. So there shouldn't be a lot of thought involved. There's usually no real poker to be played at this stage, it's either shove, or call a shove. The thing is about heads up in a STT, it's the only stage where we don't care about ICM. It's the stage where we are only playing for the remaining chips in play, so we can take huge risks in order to get them. Basically, a quick heads up is a good heads up. For a basic starting point, i'd suggest learning the NASH heads up equlibrium. Then adjusting off that chart to account for player tendancies. Lets say, the player shoves really wide, but calls very tight.

I'm going to call as wide as NASH suggests, but i'm going to shove much wider than it suggests also.

Let's say the player shoves tight, and calls tight. Well i'm going to call much tighter than NASH suggests, but i'm going to shove much wider also.

Sometimes you are at a really low blind level, and have to actually play "poker". Getting in a few hundred games of heads up play should be very beneficial to you in these spots.

this is really awesome. Like seriously.

I'm in a tourney atm but I'll re-read it and provide more questions/analysis later. But this is definitely great material.

Wow! Great post Wizzim! Just as Cj said, I'm going to need some time to digest this. As primarily a turbo SNG player, this is definitly going to be in my archives.

One quick question though: All things being equal, at what point does the short stack start shoving ATC? Say I suffer a loss and get knocked down to t260 @ 30/60 blinds. Do I wait a few hands for something (A7+, any pp) or do I just shove with any paint?

I ask this because this is a situation that comes up alot for me and I tend to wait until I see some heat before committing the rest of myt chips, but by that point a double up usually only puts me back to just slightly above where I started with. Any suggestions?

okay, time for two questions:

1) so from what you're saying in the mid-stages blind stealing isn't very important? At least not like it would be in a MTT. When I first started playing a lot of STT's I would steal a ton, like 50% ATS, but I'm working to bring it down, I think I've got it back down to 40% or so. Most of our blind stealing comes with < 12bb's when we go all-in, correct?

2) When we're the big stack and we're 5-7 handed, while it's true that the chips we gain aren't as valuable, isn't it also true that we aren't risking as much equity if we make an aggressive play with a big stack?

cjatud2012 said:

okay, time for two questions:

1) so from what you're saying in the mid-stages blind stealing isn't very important? At least not like it would be in a MTT. When I first started playing a lot of STT's I would steal a ton, like 50% ATS, but I'm working to bring it down, I think I've got it back down to 40% or so. Most of our blind stealing comes with < 12bb's when we go all-in, correct?

No, stealing blinds is important. It may not net as much equity as getting our whole stack in, but over time, stealing blinds can net a nice amount of equity. As usual i find it's a balancing act, steal too much, and we get played back at and it becomes spewy, too little, and we're not taking advantage enoguh. I find in the micros, we can steal relentlessly, but i've also found as i move up in stakes, my button and SB steals are getting raised at a much higher frequency.

2) When we're the big stack and we're 5-7 handed, while it's true that the chips we gain aren't as valuable, isn't it also true that we aren't risking as much equity if we make an aggressive play with a big stack?
Not entirely true. Lets say we double up, first hand of the tournament, our equity goes from 11% to 20%. Now lets say we double up again. it goes to around 29%, but lets say we lose, now we're back to 13%. So it doesn't look like we are risking much, but let's think about how it will affect us later on.
If we play in a big pot, and lose, we lose a lot of the plays we could have made later on. I'm not saying nit it up, but i do suggest at least trying to play in smaller pots. We're still taking re-steal shoves and playing in bigger pots often, but i will fold in marginal spots. I just think that many players over do the aggression part, and they go crazy, shoving re-stealing and raising just because they feel like they must bully the table. There's plenty of time to bully the table, but we can afford to pick our spots wisely, with timely steals and playing in smaller pots. Then once we get to the bubble with an above average stack, it's when we can really become a bully. That's the goal, getting to the bubble as an above average stack, since we doubled we're pretty much already there, so without anymore babble. Be aggressive with a big stack, but lets not just go crazy and make re-steals or plays we normally wouldn't have just because we have a nice stack of chips.

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TheKAAHK said:

Wow! Great post Wizzim! Just as Cj said, I'm going to need some time to digest this. As primarily a turbo SNG player, this is definitly going to be in my archives.

One quick question though: All things being equal, at what point does the short stack start shoving ATC? Say I suffer a loss and get knocked down to t260 @ 30/60 blinds. Do I wait a few hands for something (A7+, any pp) or do I just shove with any paint?

I ask this because this is a situation that comes up alot for me and I tend to wait until I see some heat before committing the rest of myt chips, but by that point a double up usually only puts me back to just slightly above where I started with. Any suggestions?

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Get it in as fast as possible. I'd be shoving with anything remotely pretty, most suited hands, SC's, anything. A double up is really valuable, and waiting for action for our hand is just going to lead us with very little equity in the hand and most likely knocked out of the tournament. One double up here puts us in that 10 bb range, and we can actually do something with that stack.
Since the blinds rise rapidly, we simply have no time but to shove it all in with a super wide range. We can do a few tricks to manufacture some fold equity, or make it harder for people to collude.


Example just yesterday in a $16 turbo. I just lost a big pot and was left with 340 chips at 100/200. It's folded to me and i'm dealt KTo, of course we're getting this in at this point, but if i just shove, it's likely the blinds will collude against me(both calling and checking it down). So i limp the 200, what i'm doing essentially is a "limp n go", but i'm hoping that the players left to act behind me will not see if have a stack, and may just fold out their hands, which helps me get to heads up vs the BB. So as it turns out, the SB raises very small, just enough to cover me, the BB folds (Yay) and i call. I won that hand, then won another flip, and suddenly i'm back in the tournament with 10BB's within the space of a few hands.

WiZZiM said:

Get it in as fast as possible. I'd be shoving with anything remotely pretty, most suited hands, SC's, anything. A double up is really valuable, and waiting for action for our hand is just going to lead us with very little equity in the hand and most likely knocked out of the tournament. One double up here puts us in that 10 bb range, and we can actually do something with that stack.
Since the blinds rise rapidly, we simply have no time but to shove it all in with a super wide range. We can do a few tricks to manufacture some fold equity, or make it harder for people to collude.


Example just yesterday in a $16 turbo. I just lost a big pot and was left with 340 chips at 100/200. It's folded to me and i'm dealt KTo, of course we're getting this in at this point, but if i just shove, it's likely the blinds will collude against me(both calling and checking it down). So i limp the 200, what i'm doing essentially is a "limp n go", but i'm hoping that the players left to act behind me will not see if have a stack, and may just fold out their hands, which helps me get to heads up vs the BB. So as it turns out, the SB raises very small, just enough to cover me, the BB folds (Yay) and i call. I won that hand, then won another flip, and suddenly i'm back in the tournament with 10BB's within the space of a few hands.

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I've never thought of this before. Very interesting. Thank you Wizzim, I will have to keep this in mind in the future if I find myself in this unfortunate situation.

OP was the same guy a few months back who was saying that he doesn't explain things well

Good stuff!!:beer:

Very nice Wizz!! I have also been thinking a lot about the difference between late stage with nearly a full table still and late stage near the bubble so thanks for putting that into words and presenting strategies to deal with each situation.

Pretty solid post Wiz. Just don't forget that there are other very effective ways to chip up and stuff, like...outplaying people postflop and raising over limpers.

Thanks for your great guide Wiz, one question though, in the micros (i have played 1-5) in the midgame resteals will get called for whole stacks by hands like A3, pocket 2s etc even the regs there seem to call resteal shoves pretty wide, so is it really very profitable to try and resteal? If so what range would you be restealing with?

imwatcher said:

Thanks for your great guide Wiz, one question though, in the micros (i have played 1-5) in the midgame resteals will get called for whole stacks by hands like A3, pocket 2s etc even the regs there seem to call resteal shoves pretty wide, so is it really very profitable to try and resteal? If so what range would you be restealing with?

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well I am sure you're just experiencing a selective memory, but if it's the case that we're getting called wider, instead of increasing our bluff range we instead 3-bet wider for value, i.e. 3-bet AJ, KQs, similar type hands.

imwatcher said:

Thanks for your great guide Wiz, one question though, in the micros (i have played 1-5) in the midgame resteals will get called for whole stacks by hands like A3, pocket 2s etc even the regs there seem to call resteal shoves pretty wide, so is it really very profitable to try and resteal? If so what range would you be restealing with?

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Well i've played nearly 4000 of the 3.40's so i can tell you it's very profitable making re-steals. However in STT's we're almost always re-stealing for value, or because we think our hand is way ahead of our opponants range. So with that said, it's hard to make a profitable re-steal much wider than 55+ A9s+, however there are certainly times when we can steal wider, like if we have a read on a particular player that they are raising wide and fold a lot to shoves, but still we are never going crazy, because as you mention, we don't really get many folds since the stacks are so shallow.

However you're question is just way to general to be able to answer, every situation is differant and one range in a particular spot may not neccessarily be the same, even though it looks the same. THe differances are subtle, and it takes many games to be able to recognize them.

Bwammo said:

Pretty solid post Wiz. Just don't forget that there are other very effective ways to chip up and stuff, like...outplaying people postflop and raising over limpers.

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Oh yeah for sure, there are certainly many other ways player pick up equity. A lot of people think SNGs are solved, but there's numerous ways good players accumulate equity in SNGs.

I tend to think of raising over limpers as re-stealing, i'm using very similar ranges, however i think i can definitely look into this a little more, in fact i'm off to HEM right now to start running some filters . What is you're take on SB/button/co limpers? Do we need a read to be able to shove really wide on these players?

WiZZiM said:

I tend to think of raising over limpers as re-stealing, i'm using very similar ranges, however i think i can definitely look into this a little more, in fact i'm off to HEM right now to start running some filters . What is you're take on SB/button/co limpers? Do we need a read to be able to shove really wide on these players?

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CO/Button limpers are usually full of crap lol. If they had something sexy, they'd have raised it unless it's AA or KK and they're trapping. Since there are WAAAAAAAAAAAY more hands out there than AA or KK that would be silly and limp...it's usually a good idea to just ignore the chance that they have a hand they're happy with. Doesn't really matter how good their hand is, just that they aren't happy enough to raise it...if they aren't happy enough to do that, I highly doubt they'd be very pleased to call a shove or a huge raise.

SB is a bit more special, but the same mentality applies. Although you get people who "set you up" with hands like A5o and then call a shove or something 'cause they're mentally handicapped.

Yeah that's the tough part i find in raising over limpers, you get set up a little bit, as they see me open shoving a lot. And they you get those guys who decide they would rather limp/call of their stack instead of shoving into me. I even see guys do this on the CO and button, which is why i'm still looking to stick to a re-stealing range when i do this. However as the blinds get huge, or if i'm on the bubble, it's a differant story. And in SNGs, we can rarely find spots to just open raise a big amount without it being a committing raise, so we're kind of limited to just shoving for the most part.

I'll ship ATC over a limper a lot of the time on the bubble if i have a much bigger stack than they do.

WiZZiM said:

Yeah that's the tough part i find in raising over limpers, you get set up a little bit, as they see me open shoving a lot. And they you get those guys who decide they would rather limp/call of their stack instead of shoving into me. I even see guys do this on the CO and button, which is why i'm still looking to stick to a re-stealing range when i do this. However as the blinds get huge, or if i'm on the bubble, it's a differant story. And in SNGs, we can rarely find spots to just open raise a big amount without it being a committing raise, so we're kind of limited to just shoving for the most part.

I'll ship ATC over a limper a lot of the time on the bubble if i have a much bigger stack than they do.

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Honestly the key is finding the range of cards that fairs well against the type of hands that are "setting you up". Usually you'll find it's weak aces and low pair type of hands. That means hands like 98s are golden since we can coinflip against the lower pairs and often are holding two inner cards to the weak aces.

Bwammo said:

Honestly the key is finding the range of cards that fairs well against the type of hands that are "setting you up". Usually you'll find it's weak aces and low pair type of hands. That means hands like 98s are golden since we can coinflip against the lower pairs and often are holding two inner cards to the weak aces.

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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Though a lot of players at the micros "Set me up" with hands as weak as KQ and such. Same thing applies though, those higher SC's play really well in these spots, and something i plan to look at and include into my shoving range over limpers.

Wizzim,

Do you think tightening ones push chart 1 pip for 5-7 handed, and 2 pips on the bubble would be a good strategy?

WiZZiM said:

Yeah that's the tough part i find in raising over limpers, you get set up a little bit, as they see me open shoving a lot. And they you get those guys who decide they would rather limp/call of their stack instead of shoving into me. I even see guys do this on the CO and button, which is why i'm still looking to stick to a re-stealing range when i do this. However as the blinds get huge, or if i'm on the bubble, it's a differant story. And in SNGs, we can rarely find spots to just open raise a big amount without it being a committing raise, so we're kind of limited to just shoving for the most part.

I'll ship ATC over a limper a lot of the time on the bubble if i have a much bigger stack than they do.

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What range did you have in mind?

I was thinkin somin like: A8, A7s, 66+

but that seems tight compared to the extreme of ATC.

Bwammo said:

CO/Button limpers are usually full of crap lol. If they had something sexy, they'd have raised it unless it's AA or KK and they're trapping. Since there are WAAAAAAAAAAAY more hands out there than AA or KK that would be silly and limp...it's usually a good idea to just ignore the chance that they have a hand they're happy with. Doesn't really matter how good their hand is, just that they aren't happy enough to raise it...if they aren't happy enough to do that, I highly doubt they'd be very pleased to call a shove or a huge raise.

SB is a bit more special, but the same mentality applies. Although you get people who "set you up" with hands like A5o and then call a shove or something 'cause they're mentally handicapped.

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Hmmm, so would does this mean it is the most profitable play (in the long run) to shove on the CO+ limper with ATC if they are a bad player, and as long as they aren't pot committed? HJ+ too or no?

akcash said:

Wizzim,

Do you think tightening ones push chart 1 pip for 5-7 handed, and 2 pips on the bubble would be a good strategy?





What range did you have in mind?

I was thinkin somin like: A8, A7s, 66+

but that seems tight compared to the extreme of ATC.

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Generally i'm not ever using a shove chart on the bubble. There are just way to many variables to account for. But i suppose it wouldn't be horrible if you're just starting out. I wouldn't tighten my 5-7 Handed chart, i'd just open it up slightly for more players. Like, i'm shoving tighter with 5 players than i would shove with 7 players.

Like everything, it's all very situational and it all depends on a lot of differing variables.

As for the shoving range, again, it depends. Depends how wide the guy is limping and how much he is folding. That range could be to tight against some opponants, it's really hard to say.

I created a chart for the BB when the SB limps into us with SNG wiz, perhaps you could do something similar to that?

akcash said:

Hmmm, so would does this mean it is the most profitable play (in the long run) to shove on the CO+ limper with ATC if they are a bad player, and as long as they aren't pot committed? HJ+ too or no?

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Profitable? Yes. The most profitable? No.

To be the most profitable we'd need to do more player specific moves...like raising to 4x instead of shoving knowing he'll fold if he's weak and shove if he's ahead of us...that sort of thing.

WiZZiM said:

Generally i'm not ever using a shove chart on the bubble. There are just way to many variables to account for. But i suppose it wouldn't be horrible if you're just starting out. I wouldn't tighten my 5-7 Handed chart, i'd just open it up slightly for more players. Like, i'm shoving tighter with 5 players than i would shove with 7 players.

Like everything, it's all very situational and it all depends on a lot of differing variables.

As for the shoving range, again, it depends. Depends how wide the guy is limping and how much he is folding. That range could be to tight against some opponants, it's really hard to say.

I created a chart for the BB when the SB limps into us with SNG wiz, perhaps you could do something similar to that?

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ah i c. so you might shove like several pips wider around 7 handed and shoving at the normal range on the chart 5 handed?

i actually meant i just tighten when im shoving into someone covering me. 2 pips. and then shove wider into smaller stacks accordingly. (bubble play)

Bwammo said:

Profitable? Yes. The most profitable? No.

To be the most profitable we'd need to do more player specific moves...like raising to 4x instead of shoving knowing he'll fold if he's weak and shove if he's ahead of us...that sort of thing.

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So 4x isn't committing too many chips if he comes back over the top?

akcash said:

ah i c. so you might shove like several pips wider around 7 handed and shoving at the normal range on the chart 5 handed?

i actually meant i just tighten when im shoving into someone covering me. 2 pips. and then shove wider into smaller stacks accordingly. (bubble play)

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I don't really have any sort of system like you have when shoving into players. It has a lot to do with perceived calling ranges. The problem with a system like this is, well i'll give an example. Let's say the BB has us covered, so we default to our chart and shove two pips tighter. But what if the blind is really tight? we've just cost ourselves a slight edge, it may only be a small fraction, but it adds up. So don't neglect that shoving into people has a lot to do with perceived calling ranges.

But it's good that you recognize this, we should be more risk averse when someone has us covered, especially in bubble situations.

akcash said:

So 4x isn't committing too many chips if he comes back over the top?

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It totally depends on stack sizes. I believe what he is saying is that in a spot where the limping villian has either monsters or junk in his range, it's more profitable with raising to 4x as villain will never flat and will almost always shove over with his monsters, so we get the same number of folds, with less risk, and we save chips when he does have the monsters.