Working On Improving My Range - $5 FR NL

SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
Like the subject says, working on my range. I think my range right now is possibly a serious leak and I'm looking for constructive criticism, advice, feedback, etc.

I decided it's time to step back and start from square 1 and look where I am and where I want to be.

If I look back over any given period over the past month and a half, VPIP runs form 16-18% with PFR running between 7 and 9% with PF 3-bet 2-3%. Since May 01st, 35.5 K hands and a VPIP of 18.15 and a PFR of 7.88 with a Total AFQ of 48.88.

First off, I'd like my VPIP to be ~ 22% and PFR to be 4-5% less. Is that sensible for the long run? Where should Total AFq be?

Another thing is right now I'm in a hell of a downturn of wicked luck, so my confidence is kind of in the shitter but I'm forging ahead with this anyway, I'll come out of it later today, tomorrow, whenever.

OK, first off is a pre-flop rule some people play by - "If a hand is worth playing, it's worth raising." I agree with that, but with limitations.

So, here's the way I've been trying to play last couple of days but my cards have been really polarized and not much chance to play anything mid to mid-high range.

First the monsters:

AA & KK. There's no question about being willing to get all in pre- if necessary. Matter of fact, I might prefer to get all in with these pre- and let the Poker Gods work their magic.

Other strong hands:

QQ and AK S I put on par the way I play them, I'll raise and 3-bet from any position with them, but have to be careful if I get raised again or if the hand goes to the flop or past.

JJ, AQ S and AK O - I will raise and 3-bet with these, but will normally fold to another raise. If I'm in position, I MIGHT call depending on Villain(s).

Now is where it starts getting funky for me.

22-1010 - I will raise into an unopened pot if I'm in the CO, Button or SB, but many times prefer to flat call, and I will call a raised pot if the value is there. Normally from any other early or middle position, these are a flat call for me. However, many of the guides recommend folding in early or middle positions. I don't agree with this and welcome your thoughts.

Suited Broadway cards - If they're connecting, I'll raise from any position into a pot with limpers or an unopened pot, but will never 3-bet with them and will fold if someone before me raises. If they're not connected, I'll raise an unopened pot in late position, and fold otherwise.

AQ O and AJ O - These are hands I normally don't like playing unless I can raise into an unopened pot from the button. Auto-fold to any raise or with limpers.

Kx and Qx I don't like playing from anywhere, but will raise an unopened pot from the Button if they're connecting.

4-5 S - 9-10 S - I will raise only in late position and into an unopened pot and almost never call with them.

Anything else is garbage and it's an auto-fold.



So, there's my plan, and as noted above, looking for some feedback and suggestions.

EDIT:

What would be a good sample size of hands to re-evaluate my progress on this endeavor?

EDIT #2:

Meant to add this above. Raising pre-flop serves 2 purposes:

  • For value, in other words to build the pot to maximize your winnings.
  • To isolate players playing garbage that could hit on a bad flop that doesn't hit us.
 
Last edited:
micromachine

micromachine

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Total posts
5,770
Chips
0
Sounds like you do need to close the VPIP/PFR gap and one easy way to do that is to 3bet more (your 3bet is pretty low). Define a (small) range that you will flat opens with (22-TT and AQ and AJ for example) and then 3bet or fold everything else. This will bring your VPIP and PFR much closer together. As for your 3bet range you probably need to think about adding in a few bluff hands to 3bet with vs villains with high steal and high fold to 3bet stats. A2s-A5s is good as are SCs such as 76s-T9s because they are easy to fold to a 4bet and easy to get away from post if you're called and don't flop a monster/strong draw.

Can you post your stats by position? I get the impression that you are not opening wide enough from the CO and BTN. Once it's folded round to the BTN there isnt any difference really between a 6max and FR table - on a 6max table (if the blinds are relatively tight) I'm opening every hand where both my cards are 6 or higher, and all PPs and SCs below that. Just to give you an idea of how ridiculously wide you can steal from the BTN in the right circumstances :)

AFQ of about 48 is average and fine

You are only opening AQo and AJo from the BTN?? These can be opened from MP on a FR table.

Will take another look at this tomorrow and may have more comments when I have more time..
 
micromachine

micromachine

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Total posts
5,770
Chips
0
Also, not limping in with low PPs and overlimping less will bring the VPIP and PFR closer
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
Forgot to add Suited As:

A-10 S and AJ S - Will raise un-opened pots from any position, but will seldom call anything unless in late position with limpers.

Weak Suited As - Will limp from anywhere, will never raise normally and will never call raised pots.
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
SNIP<<<< Can you post your stats by position? I get the impression that you are not opening wide enough from the CO and BTN. Once it's folded round to the BTN there isnt any difference really between a 6max and FR table - on a 6max table (if the blinds are relatively tight) I'm opening every hand where both my cards are 6 or higher, and all PPs and SCs below that. Just to give you an idea of how ridiculously wide you can steal from the BTN in the right circumstances :)>>>>SNIP

Here you go, since May 01st:

KjqdLds.png
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
Good luck SeaRun I'm sure you'll find great direction. I was going to mention that you could start opening your range a bit with some of the mid pocket pairs. Don't take my word for anything but why not try open raising or 3 betting with your pocket 8's , 9's and 10's from mid position?
 
R

redwards92

never going to move up
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 17, 2013
Total posts
2,234
Awards
1
Chips
8
Good luck SeaRun I'm sure you'll find great direction. I was going to mention that you could start opening your range a bit with some of the mid pocket pairs. Don't take my word for anything but why not try open raising or 3 betting with your pocket 8's , 9's and 10's from mid position?

3b 88-TT from MP would be pretty bad considering we are going to be 3b an EP open.

Much more value in setmining/flatting those spots.
 
W

waterboy73

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Total posts
533
Chips
0
Like someone has already said, I too believe you need to open your range from the button (possibly cutoff as well.) It seems you are very tight, in position, where it should be the other way around... And you need to learn to fold small pairs in early position! Obviously, there are times where you can set mine... But, if you are limping with small pairs from early position, and then folding if it gets raised, then you are just bleeding chips. You will hit a set 1 out of 8 times, so all the times you don't, you just lose chips. Not to mention, by limping you are not giving yourself a chance to EVER win the pot pre flop.. And it seems you play a style that is: "fold if you miss." Some it seems (to me) you are pigeon holing yourself. Bets of luck in plugging the leaks, and becoming the player you want to be.
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
3b 88-TT from MP would be pretty bad considering we are going to be 3b an EP open.

Much more value in setmining/flatting those spots.

As an admitted fish I don't know anything but I do this quite often and have done quite well. Of course I always weigh who is at the table and how they may play back but if you have a passive more often than not they will either call or fold depending on what they're holding. I'm not sure of the percentage of time a player misses the flop but depending on the villain and texture a lot of the times a continuation bet can take the pot down on the flop. Usually if villains VPIP is higher than 10 and lower than 18 with low aggression I'll do this.

Don't take my justification as the right thing to do I'm just sharing my experience.
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
Like someone has already said, I too believe you need to open your range from the button (possibly cutoff as well.) It seems you are very tight, in position, where it should be the other way around...
Thanks for the tip and yes, I'll be working on that.
And you need to learn to fold small pairs in early position! Obviously, there are times where you can set mine... But, if you are limping with small pairs from early position, and then folding if it gets raised, then you are just bleeding chips. You will hit a set 1 out of 8 times, so all the times you don't, you just lose chips. Not to mention, by limping you are not giving yourself a chance to EVER win the pot pre flop.. And it seems you play a style that is: "fold if you miss." Some it seems (to me) you are pigeon holing yourself. Bets of luck in plugging the leaks, and becoming the player you want to be.

OK, I noted above that many guides suggest just that, but I don't agree with it.

Let's look at 3 examples.

I'm in UTG+1 with 44 and call. CO raises to 4 bbs and button shoves, I'm folding, no questions and 1 bb gone.

Now, let's say I'm in MP with 33 and I call UTG+1s raise to 3bb (which I will do if the equity is there, right or wrong).

A hand like this is pretty well disguised:

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 10.69, PFR: 8.05, 3Bet Preflop: 2.71, Hands: 696)
UTG+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 16.07, PFR: 6.49, 3Bet Preflop: 0.58, Hands: 455)
MP: 124 BB (VPIP: 14.16, PFR: 4.42, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 116)
Hero (MP+1): 105.4 BB
CO: 75.2 BB (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
BTN: 100 BB
SB: 100.4 BB (VPIP: 14.95, PFR: 13.27, 3Bet Preflop: 6.36, Hands: 1,026)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 10.24, PFR: 7.08, 3Bet Preflop: 2.56, Hands: 969)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 3:heart: 3:diamond:

fold, UTG+1 raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero calls 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (10.4 BB, 3 players) 8:spade: 3:club: A:heart:
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets 7 BB, CO calls 7 BB, UTG+1 calls 7 BB

Turn: (31.4 BB, 3 players) 4:club:
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets 19 BB, CO calls 19 BB, fold

River: (69.4 BB, 2 players) 4:spade:
Hero bets 76.4 BB and is all-in, CO calls 46.2 BB and is all-in

Hero shows 3:heart: 3:diamond: (Full House, Threes full of Fours) (Pre 50%, Flop 94%, Turn 100%)
CO shows A:spade: J:spade: (Two Pair, Aces and Fours) (Pre 50%, Flop 6%, Turn 0%)
Hero wins 155 BB


Here I'm in UTG, I flat call, get raised and call again.

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 10.03, PFR: 7.96, 3Bet Preflop: 2.72, Hands: 587)
BB: 76.6 BB (VPIP: 31.11, PFR: 2.22, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)
Hero (UTG): 163.8 BB
UTG+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 12.19, PFR: 9.74, 3Bet Preflop: 4.49, Hands: 1,904)
MP: 119 BB (VPIP: 17.39, PFR: 13.11, 3Bet Preflop: 6.12, Hands: 187)
MP+1: 80 BB (VPIP: 14.63, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 41)
CO: 109.8 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 19.05, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 2:spade: 2:heart:

Hero calls 1 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 4 BB, fold, Hero calls 3 BB

Flop: (9 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond: 2:club: 9:diamond:
SB bets 4.4 BB, Hero calls 4.4 BB

Turn: (17.8 BB, 2 players) 9:spade:
SB bets 8.4 BB, Hero calls 8.4 BB

River: (34.6 BB, 2 players) A:club:
SB bets 16.6 BB, Hero raises to 49.8 BB, SB calls 33.2 BB

Hero shows 2:spade: 2:heart: (Full House, Twos full of Nines) (Pre 50%, Flop 75%, Turn 100%)
SB mucks K:diamond: A:diamond: (Two Pair, Aces and Nines) (Pre 50%, Flop 25%, Turn 0%)
Hero wins 128.6 BB


Now, is this going to happen all the time? Hell no, like you said, the flop will hit a PP 1 of 8 times. But with proper equity, it will pay off over the long run (my opinion, anyway.

I looked back in PT4 Range Chart for 36K hands since May 01st. Here's the results from 22 - 1010 pps

1010 - 167 hands - + $19.78
99 - 157 hands - -$6.39
88 - 151 hands - +$17.95
77 - 151 hands - +$2.25
66 - 151 hands - -$2.44
55 - 144 hands - +$7.76
44 - 140 hands - -$11.73 (in SB $5.12 lost flopped set to straight, AI on flop)
33 - 166 hands - +$3.86

So of those 1227 hands of playing small - med PPs in all positions I am up $31.04 which is fine by me.

Note, a quick scroll through all pairs doesn't seem to show any glaring discrepancy between win / loss hands in any particular position.

Now, I'm not saying I'm 100% right and anyone else is 100% wrong. I'm putting up the same information I use to make my decisions. Other than being part of a discussion, that's the best I can do.
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
3-betting has been mentioned above several times so here's some personal comments about 3-betting pre-.

  • I know my post-flop play leaves quite a bit to be desired, and may well be worse than my pre- play. But in this return to square 1, I figured I'd get pre-fixed first and then work on post-. From what I've read above, 3-betting is more of a part of the game than I thought it was and if I get called, I need some confidence i my post- play, which I don't have right now.
  • I do know I have to be selective on who to 3-bet on. While I have a couple of thousand or more hands in the HUD on a few players, for the most part, villains are new to me, or with a couple of hundred hands which isn't good enough for a read IMHO.
  • I'm not sure I understand the value of 3-betting as well as you folks obviously do. Let's say I'm on the Button, CO raises to 6 bbs after 3 callers, so there's now $0.52 in the pot. If I'm going to 3-bet him, some guides say I should be betting 3 X what he bet + the total of what's in the pot (if I understand right) which would make my bet $0.97. So I'm going to bet $0.97 to try to win $0.42, I just don't see the value in that unless I'm positive him and the 3 callers will fold. With the number of calling stations and fish I see in $5 FR, I don't know if I see the value.
 
micromachine

micromachine

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Total posts
5,770
Chips
0
Here you go, since May 01st:

VPIP and PFR too wide gap imo, you must be calling and overlimping a lot in BTN and CO and I think in a lot of those spots 3betting or raising would be better. Often you can make the loose passive fish pay to see the flop then take it down with a cbet when the check it to you.
 
micromachine

micromachine

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Total posts
5,770
Chips
0
3-betting has been mentioned above several times so here's some personal comments about 3-betting pre-.
  • I know my post-flop play leaves quite a bit to be desired, and may well be worse than my pre- play. But in this return to square 1, I figured I'd get pre-fixed first and then work on post-. From what I've read above, 3-betting is more of a part of the game than I thought it was and if I get called, I need some confidence i my post- play, which I don't have right now.
  • I do know I have to be selective on who to 3-bet on. While I have a couple of thousand or more hands in the HUD on a few players, for the most part, villains are new to me, or with a couple of hundred hands which isn't good enough for a read IMHO.
  • I'm not sure I understand the value of 3-betting as well as you folks obviously do. Let's say I'm on the Button, CO raises to 6 bbs after 3 callers, so there's now $0.52 in the pot. If I'm going to 3-bet him, some guides say I should be betting 3 X what he bet + the total of what's in the pot (if I understand right) which would make my bet $0.97. So I'm going to bet $0.97 to try to win $0.42, I just don't see the value in that unless I'm positive him and the 3 callers will fold. With the number of calling stations and fish I see in $5 FR, I don't know if I see the value.

- Sort out the pre flop game and the post flop will become easier, I often find that my preflop mistakes get me into awkward situations post that I could've avoided.

- A couple of hundred hands is good enough for a read, even if the fold to 3bet stat hasn't converged you can use the other stats to get an idea of who will be folding to 3bets a lot. TAGs and NITs with a fairly high steal% stat are good candidates, especially if you are in the CO or BTN and have position on them (they will know that calling 3bets OOP is bad).

- That is an unusual situation, certainly trying to 3bet bluff with multiple players in the hand will be a bad idea. Better wait until HU or you have a normal sized open followed by a flat from one or two loose passives. 3x the original raise is good sizing, go bigger if multiple player in the pot or if OOP. A more Normal resteal: BB 3betting CO open heads-up for example, you are looking at betting ~10bb to win 4.5bb (the open + the blinds), you may not think that sounds great but if CO is folding to 3bets 80%+ of the time it becomes profitable.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
A few quick thought:

Why is your vpip / pfr gap as wide as it is? How much of this gap is due to open-limping vs limping behind vs calling opens to set-mine and/or with SCs?

Playing 22-TT as described seems like an over-simplification. 22 and TT are very different hands, largely because of how many overs you're likely to see on the flop and how this impacts how you can play post-flop.

Auto-folding AQo and AJo except when you can open them from the btn is far too tight. Barring unusual circumstances, you should default to opening them from LP. And why would you not even consider iso-raising vs a limper or 2, especially from LP?
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
VPIP and PFR too wide gap imo, you must be calling and overlimping a lot in BTN and CO and I think in a lot of those spots 3betting or raising would be better.

So am I right that following this, my % of Attempt To Steal would be in the vicinity of 75%???

Often you can make the loose passive fish pay to see the flop then take it down with a cbet when the check it to you

Many times, it's these players that cause me issues. Many of these players will call nearly anything and will chase anything to showdown. Very often because of their wide range I get smoked. I will C-Bet into them on each street only to find out they're being passive and playing "Calling Station".

Now, that being said, one of my major leaks is how I play TPTK post-flop and it gets me in trouble with passive fish. But I'm getting better at getting away from those hands. Yes, I'm probably folding too many where I'm good, but I'm not losing nearly as much.

A few quick thought:

Why is your vpip / pfr gap as wide as it is? How much of this gap is due to open-limping vs limping behind vs calling opens to set-mine and/or with SCs?

One thing causes that gap IMHO - Inexperience. And you're probably 100% correct regarding limping. They say the first step to fixing a problem is recognizing and admitting you have a problem, and that's the reason I started this thread asking for help!!!! :D :D :D

Playing 22-TT as described seems like an over-simplification. 22 and TT are very different hands, largely because of how many overs you're likely to see on the flop and how this impacts how you can play post-flop.

Couldn't agree more. this should have probably been split into 2 groups, I.e.: 22 - 66 and 77 - TT as an example, but for ease and brevity I left it this way.

22-66 I have no problem folding on the flop if I don't hit, as the majority of the time the flop is at least 2 over-cards.

The higher pairs is the same way, no issue folding with 2 or more over cards but these will be played a lot more depending on the board and how many & type of players involved post-flop

Auto-folding AQo and AJo except when you can open them from the btn is far too tight. Barring unusual circumstances, you should default to opening them from LP. And why would you not even consider iso-raising vs a limper or 2, especially from LP?

Again, inexperience and lack of my trust and confidence in post-flop play, and not understanding the value in 3-betting enough in position as Micro explained above.
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
A light bulb just went on :rolleyes: :stupid: :hmmmm2: :stupido3: :shot: :dancing:

It's always pissed me off that I get so little action with As and Ks. Playing with nit numbers like I've been, it's no wonder I get such little action.

A few 3-bets that I have to fold is kind of an investment in the future when I do get monsters people with HUDs and observant players who don't will be more likely to donate to the pot if my numbers are much higher.

To quote Homer - DOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
Well, I will say this is poker on a whole new level for me.

I just played a short session of 129 hands (minuscule sample size but just to get an idea) with a determination to play the way you've suggested.

I played 4 tables, and one of them, in 20 hands, I didn't play a single hand, and had 1 hand folded to me in the BB. There was an aggressive player 2 seats to my right, 24/21 for 400 hands and a fold to 3-bet of 21 %. This table I had garbage most of the time and didn't have a hand worth 3-betting when in position.

I chose my raise situations carefully, normally in CO or Button but sometimes a seat or 2 earlier with raises in early or middle positions with AK or AQ, or the 88

The other 3 tables were a mixture of regs and new (to me) players, and at these I had stats of:

17.95/15.38
17.24/17.24
21.95/19.51

For this number of hands, I didn't have great cards, once each 77, 88, AK O, and AQ O twice. Had middle SCs once but folded that after a raise and 3-bet before the action even got to me. One thing that kind of caught me off guard, is only 1 single hand went to showdown, and that was the 77 hand, Flop, Turn and River were all checked.

In spite of the quality of the cards, I was determined and here's a graph showing the result:

f5sp4WU.png


Considering the cards I had, quite respectable showing. Playing the way I normally do, this would have been a mundane session probably with a loss from folding blinds.

Now I will say even with the 1 dead table, I found it quite hectic at times with the increased action. I may step back to 3 tables instead of 4, we'll see.

Big thank you to you all for the help and introducing me to this style.

Yes, I know there'll be sessions where everything gets shoved back in my face, but "Winning poker is a marathon, not a sprint", right?
 
Top