Where to start?

Hey everyone, joined cardschat.com today and hoping to learn a TON from you all! So far it seems like there's a lot of information here, so I'm feeling pretty confident.

Anyways, I only started playing (Hold'em) like a week ago, I started playing with play money, then took some time to try and study the basic strategies and stuff, just trying to get a better understanding of the basics of the game. I've already made a deposit on my site, but I haven't played any real money games yet, since I feel I lack experience and knowledge to really make a profit yet. In the play money games, I've actually lost a fair bit just by trying to apply the strategies I've learnt, but after reading some more I've found that even in low limit real money games, people just don't play very strategic (which makes a lot of it useless).

I watched the video tutorials at PokerHeaven.com, I've read a few articles and tried to understand the math of poker, but I still feel like I'm just not very good at putting it all together. I don't have a very good understanding of odds, what strategies work at the lower limits, when to fold / bet and so on. Therefore I'm asking where you guys think it would be best to start (just learn the odds and start playing, any specific books or websites etc.)? I do understand the basics and how the online rooms work, but since I have the patience anyways, I just want to be as best prepared as I can be!

Thanks, hope to hear from some of you sharks out there.

You need to make your mind up on if you wanna a SNG player, MTT player, or a cash player to start. As you learn you can change want you would like to do.

But for a beginner I would suggest SNG because you can win with text book poker.

But there plenty of resources for all them. You need make your mind up on your route.

SNG is what I've been playing so far (I'm not even sure what a cash game is!). So I think I'll stick with that for now, definitely not gonna start playing tournaments if I don't expect to end up in a position where I'm actually making money. Not that it wouldn't be fun, but I'd like to win at this game!

So, should I try and find SNG-specific resources? When you say text book poker, I'm assuming you mean playing strictly by the odds. So the most important thing for me at this point is to just learn the card odds and always play accordingly? Until I play at higher stakes.

Where you just started I would also suggest trying the micro stakes cash games just to see, you might like it better than tournies, or not but you won't know till you try it.

I wouls stick with the private freerolls for a while and try and build your bank roll while you learn. The a re a few of these every week and they are good games with good players. Completely different from the public freerolls which will teach you very little.

Thanks for the replies. How do I get into private freerolls? I'm still unsure whether or not I'm just a very bad player still (not doing very well in play money), or if people just aren't taking it serious enough for me to apply any real strategy. I just played now and even I couldn't take it serious, doing calls I know are terrible because heck, everyone else is doing the exact same thing and it doesn't really matter.

So I should try both SNG and tourney? Gotcha! I'm still unsure what I should learn first (outside of playing). If I'm gonna be playing SNG I figure learning and playing by the odds is the way to go? And tourneys will need more strategy against good players on top of knowing the odds. Do you guys have any suggestions for learning the odds, I've read about how to calculate card odds and pot odds, I'm just not enough of a math genius to apply it yet. So how can I get a general idea of it?

Sorry if I write too much.

Personaly I think the best thing to do is to just use the play money games till you are comfortable with the layout of the software.

Once you are happy with that start by watching a few ring games and tourneys/ sitn go's

It will give you a general Idea how people are playing at those levels and if you notice anyone consistently playing very loose or tight , then make a note of them. It might help you later if you find yourself at the same table.


But I think when you do start to play for real the most important thing is to play within your bankroll. Dont put yourself in a position where you are playing for all or most of your bankroll at one time. I would keep it at around 5% -10% of your bankroll as the maximum entry range.

When you first start out, I think it's easier if you play tight.

Try this article for some good starting hands:

http://www.cardschat.com/poker/guide/starting-hands


This gives you an idea of what to play preflop...stick with this strategy and you will do well on the low limit tables. You'll take the occasional bad beat, but that's part of the game. Don't get sucked into playing bad cards just becuase everyone else is doing it...the people playing the bad cards are the one's who will build your bankroll for you.

Also, do a search for 'bankroll management' and read up on that...managing your bankroll is just as important as playing good poker.

Honestly man you shouldn't even be playing with real money yet. I would just sit down and play with play money until you at least know all the foundational basics of the game. Or give the freerolls a try even. But know this the play at the beginning of them can be very bad so don't take too many notes until you get deeper into them.

Stick with the 9-plyr sng's for awhile (good choice btw).

I've been playing online since '07 and if I had it to do all over again this is what I would do:

1) Read Phil Gordon's "Little Green Book"
... this will help give you a decent foundation on the game and this is the book I would start out with

Continue playing SNG's (9plyr) and try not to deviate from them. After awhile try playing some 27-plyr. SNG's (the fields are typically alot softer in the 27's but I feel that one should start off by sticking with the 9's for awhile first)

2) Read "Harrington On Holdem - Tournament Play" Vol.1 & 2
this series is the best for getting a decent foundation on NLHE Tournament play. Again... if I could do it all over again I would read these books before getting into much MTT play. (I actually did read them a few times over when I first got started playing MTTs online).

If you decide you'd like to continue playing SNG's... Read "Collin Moshmann's SNG Strategy Book". This is the best book to pick up if you're intending on playing SNG's. The book will pay for itself in one session.

The above would give you a decent start on the tables imo. From there you will likely be deciding whether or not to pursue MTT play or cash game play. I'd suggest researching both prior to getting in too deep.

Contrary to what some other's have stated, I wouldn't waste any time on the play money tables. It's not even really poker that they're playing there.

Oh boy... Getting a lot of mixed advice here! I appreciate everyone helping me out for sure, but man is this a difficult game to get into. I've already set my mind on learning to win at this long-term, and I'm not quitter, so guess I'll just have to suck it up then!

MoSa: I do feel pretty comfortable with how the software works. I tried playing real money games today, I lost some, won some. Mostly lost, but there are so many bad calls winning on the river cards! I did watch a Chris Ferguson video explaining basic bank roll management, always 10% buyin MAX. I already have 100$ on my bank roll (no, I'm not gonna burn it on high-stake games beyond my skill - I'm even trying not to burn it on low-stakes), I figured it is worth the investment if it can motivate me to keep working to turn a profit. I've tried watching a table before I entered, but mostly the plays seem very random, everyone plays too many hands and calls when they shouldn't (even I can tell, and I suck).

Toad: That's the impression I've gotten as well (to play tight in lower limits). The problem is that I simply don't have a very good understanding of the odds (when to fold or call, considering the pot odds). I'll definitely try to play by the article you linked and see how that goes. Tt's very straight forward even if I don't understand why I'm doing what I'm doing.

Steves22: I do think I need to work more on the basics. The problem is I don't know how to. If I'm not learning when to do what and why, I don't think play money (or real money for that matter) will help much. That's where you all come in! I'm not bothered by waiting to play real money, I just want to get the best possible "education".

Poker Orifice: I already made a deposit with Poker Stars, player limit there is 8 players as far as I can tell. This is the kind of advice I'm looking for though, reading a ton of books really won't bother me, I just need to find which ones work the best. I will check out "Little Green Book", do you feel the other books are helpful for lower limit SNG as well? Are there any other books or learning materials / methods you'd suggest? I'm gonna wait with tournaments until I have some more basics down I think. I know what you mean about the play money tables, I've tried playing my best but even when I do try and be serious, sometimes I'll make calls I know suck. The same thing happens at the lower stakes, so I guess it's fine for practicing for those games. But then if I already knew how to play tight correctly, I might as well go to the real money tables?

Sorry if I repeat myself. Again thanks for all the help so far everyone, you wouldn't expect so many people to be helpful in a game this competitive!

A good way to learn is using pokerstars software with there play money. I will display what you have a all times ( card ranking) Also there is alot of books out there..I recomend poker for dummies to start off it has alot of detail info on all poker games. Another good book is the super system by doyle. As for videos stacked with daniel negreanu is a good video to start with. I also put answer to question that people ask for.

You can do it at the lower stakes real money provided you're sensible about the flops you see (stick to premium hands and be congnizant of your position on the table) and have discipline in not making those bad calls.

Stick with it and the % calls will work in your favour even if you do suck out once in a while.

Good luck on the felt!

Dreams of Tragedy: Thanks for your suggestions. I've played around with the Poker Stars play money tables, everyone players like they don't care (well, why would they!). I know the way to beat those guys it to play tight-aggressive (always going with the odds), but I already feel pretty comfortable knowing what kind of hands I can make with my hole cards. So I don't know the big difference between play money and real money, other than I won't win or lose anything with play money (then again people don't take it seriously). I'll check out Poker for Dummies. Super System looks like something I'd wanna check out sometime, but I probably need something more basic at this point.

Tangerine 53: Thanks, I'll try. Just gotta keep studying so I won't make the bad calls. If I'm serious about playing, I'll definitely be able to stay away from making bad calls as long as I'm able to recognize those bad calls from the good! Good luck to you too.

The poker for dummies has the ABC of poker. I have read some of it before and some things i do not agree with but other things in it has good info. I have over 100 ebooks on poker and 5 videos and always looking for more info and ways to play. don't limit your self there world is yours for the taking

Dreams of Tragedy: Sounds good. Can you point to anything specific that maybe I shouldn't pay as much attention to in that book? Maybe there are others which offer better info on similar subjects. Or should I just read several books before starting to play again, get a different perspective on things? Though if I'm gonna be playing tight on low limits, I guess all I really need to understand are what hands to go with, odds etc.. Is Poker for Dummies good for that? I'd like some way of learning it other than simply the math, it seems way too complicated to apply to fast games. I know I talk a lot about learning the odds, I want to learn everything but everyone says to play tight, so I get the impression it's the #1 priority.

Forget about "poker for dummies".... or reading a zillion books for gaining different perspectives. Pick up Phil Gordon's book & then take it from there. I can guarantee that there will be many (who are expereinced) who will agree that the "Little Green Book" is a great place to start for NLHE play.

Phil Gordans book is a great start, as poker orifice said. Its not to complicated, so you wont get sick of reading it or bogged down quickly with lots of numbers and statistics.

I do think you will move on from it quickly tho but it still essential to get to grips with the game before moving on.

After this just start playing a little small stakes, as soon as $$$ is on the line the standard of play increases dramaticly. HoHs books are also a must if you want to persue tourneys rather than cash.

But just stick to Little green book and <$5 STTs for now imo. Gl OP

TD

Poker Orifice: Done and done, already read parts of it from an eBook and decided to order it. It seems pretty straight forward, but there's still so many things to keep track of, it's hard to understand everything. I'm just gonna follow your advice and read it several times, so I have a solid foundation.

TopDonk: I might like to play in tournaments later on, when the time comes I will definitely check out the Harrington books too. Only top places get paid in the tournaments I've seen so far, so until I have a shot at winning I'm gonna stick to reading and SNG. Thanks a lot, I will learn Little Green Book by heart and then try to play low stakes again!

Also dont get to caught up about knowing everything or even winning at first. People who have played the game for 10years+ don't know everything and people lose when they first start out unless varience is on there side early. Dont give up I was a losing player donating cash for 2 years and i think I now finally might be a slight winnerhopefully noy just varience

TD

Play Money games for a while, ESPECIALLY since you state you haven't been playing very long at all.

Consider it training wheels. You might not be there very long, and it might only be that you get a good feel for the mechanics of the situation.

I played play money games for a very long time largely because I was and still am, relatively a cheap bastard.

The best thing, and certainly a watershed, is when you can read something, and DISAGREE with it! When that happens, go back and make sure you understand the premise of what you read, and then write out why you disagree with something. Then post it for us to illucidate on.

Keep active here. Ask questions, cuz as you can see, we got a shitload of wannabe experts, along with our certifiables (experts or insano's IDK).

While some will want you to jump right in with your real cash, well, they want new blood. Resist! Feel comfortable with what you are doing.

As far as you Private Tourney question. Here at CC, we want our freerolls to be for contributing members and have a 65 post min to get the password. Keep in mind that questions are very valid contributions!

The one suggestion I followed and swear by is to play play money SnG's till I had 1/2 million points before I felt comfortable enough to deposit. It takes patience to do that. You have to learn the cheap games and the folks who play the cheap games. You have to learn the changes from the cheap games to the more expensive games. The nature of the game DOES change. Eventually you hit the expensive play money games (oxymoron, I know), where the 10K play money buy-ins play very decent poker.

I took a slower approach than many, but mine was safe, for me. If I exclude the $/hr part of the game, and concentrate on the hobby aspect, I am certainly a +EV player.

It can be done. Also check out Fergusons Challenge http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/chris-ferguson-challenge. Chris Ferguson set himself a goal to go from zero to $10K and achieved it using very frugal methods and tight money control via Bankroll Management http://www.chrisferguson.com/article-4. We have threads to help anyone understand BR even better. Blowing your wad in one session doesn't happen to those who understand BR.

GL and welcome to CC.

[quote=dj11;1386132]Play Money games for a while, ESPECIALLY since you state you haven't been playing very long at all.

Consider it training wheels. You might not be there very long, and it might only be that you get a good feel for the mechanics of the situation.


I was on the play money games for a while and whilst I can understand where this is coming from it just isn't the same as the real money game. Certainly the cash tables on play money are an absolute waste of time in my experience. The play money SNG's standard of play is generally better and has some relation to real money SNG's although you can hit some tables there some time and have 5 people go all in on the first hand so they can be very variable. The same is true of freeroll MTT's in my experience - some play them well whilst some are simply shocking.

TopDonk: I won't. I will try to find some kind of balance between reading and practicing. Trying to avoid becoming a losing player for long, at least if I can help it! Though I'm more interested in playing winning poker, rather than just get lucky on the river like most people (apparently) rely on at lower stakes.

dj11: I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "when I can read something and disagree with it"? If you could elaborate that'd be great, but yeah I'll try to post questions whenever I'm uncertain about something. Thanks for your reply by the way, the longer posts the better, still waiting for my book to arrive! Can't stand reading it on my iPod when I know I have a hardcover version arriving in the mail in a few days.

I did play the play money tables for a while, although I never build a real "bankroll" from it and am actually down now, I just don't feel like I'm learning anything from the low limit tables there. People are even less serious about it than at the micro limits and it just seems like a lot of the strategic elements of the game are lost (even compared to the micros). I know I can slowly build up by playing tight, but in reality I'm supposed to play aggressive poker in order to win? That might work at the higher limits, but getting there will be a pain, with so many players making stupid calls at once.

Do you have any suggestions on how to build a bankroll on the play money tables, or should I just study and hopefully be able to enter a free roll soon enough? I'm not trying to discard your advice, just pointing out that so far, I feel the play money tables have very little to do with what I've learned from poker books until now.

You're right that some people might be biased because they want to exploit my inexperience, but I'm not gonna throw chips at anyone. So far I've only played at the micros, and seem to do okay there. I wouldn't enter limits that are out of my league, and even if I did I'd have the sense to quit and never buy-in for a large portion of my bankroll (I can't at the limits I've played at!). I did check out the Chris Ferguson Challenge, it was pretty cool. BR management is definitely another thing I need to learn more about, I realized how important it is to be a winning player in the long-term. Too bad Full Tilt only offer their full material to their own players.

I was actually playing some real money games today, made up for the stupid plays I made yesterday. It was actually really easy today, just needed to focus and not make stupid calls. People were really easy to bully, I could steal the blinds and antes every time I wanted, and whenever I have good cards they still call everything. I might've gotten lucky and just didn't notice it, but I felt like I was making the right calls based on what I know.

I know I can slowly build up by playing tight, but in reality I'm supposed to play aggressive poker in order to win?

You might be confusing 'Tight' with 'Passive'.. & 'Aggressive' with 'Loose'.
Generally for playing SNGs you want to adopt a Tight-Aggressive approach... tight being 'selective with starting hands' (ie. don't call an early position raise with something like AJ or KQ in early levels as it is an easily dominated hand... the kind of hand that'd typically be raising in early position in early levels (ie. AK AQ). Aggressive - play the hands that you do play.. 'aggressively' (esp. in micro limits, if you flop decent don't trap/slowplay.. instead bet out and get paid off by alot of the 'looser' playeres on the table who will be calling you down with TPWK (< Top Pr. Weak Kicker) or MPGK (MidPr. Good Kicker), etc.

As far as the suggestion that some members would post on here and suggest you play the micro limits as opposed to play money merely for their own benefit...... I think this is pure rubbish. Personally I'm only posting here on your thread to try to help you out (as I'm sure most if not all are intending to do as well). Playing on play money tables (in 'MY' opinion) is a complete waste of time and if anything it's just going to have you picking up bad habits (ie. overvaluing hands... ie. calling down with TopPr. weak kicker,.. overvaluing broadway cards in early levels, etc.).

If you're playing Single Table SNG's, there are pretty distinct ways in which to play them that are proven as an effective strategy/method to beat them. Basically you want to play tight in early levels, as the goal is getting to the late levels where the game basically becomes a push/fold preflop game (ie. raise... reraise allin.. fold, etc.). Learning how to play the early levels... then to up the aggression & loosen starting hands marginally in mid levels (to steal the blinds in order to maintain your stack so that you have fold equity.... &/or to keep from blinding out,.. then in Late Levels (bubble play &.or high blinds and in the money play).. learn a good shove/fold game & you should be doing okay. There are TONS of SNG strategy guides online... check some of them out & then if you do intend on sticking to SNG's... pick up Moshmann's book on SNG Strategy.

I would practice practice before you start to give money away, the only way to learn is to play thousands of hands and read a few books, and know the math. Poker is not as easy as it looks, I have been playing about 3 years and still learning! You will get some great help here at CC there are some very good people here and good players also. GL and take it slow.l

If you go broke (maybe you won't :P I have.) it might be a good idea not to redeposit. The freerolls are tough but the DD freeroll and Ferguson can teach you a lot especially in the later stages where it literally becomes a steal fest, you'll learn to pick your spots to steal your way to a big stack, its really fun actually. MTTs are decent training for SnGs but I would definitely check out some of the stuff on STTs on the site.

once you hit your 65 posts ..requests entry into our CC freeroll club.

Their you can practice your skills on real money tournaments and maybe even get a jumpstart on your bankroll. gl on your future play

dude, you sayd you deposited 100 dollars and from what i understand they are on pokerstars. well why don't you play the 10c tournaments with 360 people in it? i have played hundreds of those, it really improved my game.

anyway, so many people giving you advice, trust me, different people learn different ways and they will try to teach you their way, problem is that we all go our own way.

little green book is a good start, i must agree. plus you can always search on you tube, just search for poker videos, you will find plenty of information, give yourself some time, don't try to learn it all at once. you learn by making mistakes and by losing.

Honestly, the 10k 9 player SNGs on Pokerstars have pretty good players. Of course you have the donks, but the small .25/$1 SNGs have those as well. So, if you want experience w/out risk to the BR try out the 10k play money SNGs on Pokerstars. Anything lower then that is pretty donk like.

If you have already deposited then I would use your real money, play money just isnt the same. Sit and goes are good because they can give you a good hour of playing experience but they can also make transition to cash games tougher for some players. Here is why I think you should try a few weeks of sngs-

Get use to the software on your site. Play some 9 man sngs.

Start watching other players and see what you can learn about their play, try and guess what hands people have while you watch, soon you can get all sorts of information and start getting some great info. Start thinking of the best way to counter each player.

Make notes on these players.

Play tight early unless you get a great hand while you learn. If you are going out first or second alot then your playing to many hands.

Start of by learning about what starting hands you should play IE AA is a great starting hand 7-2 not so great.

Try to learn about cards you need to improve your hand or "outs"

Get some games under your wing just experience poker for a while but you need to learn about Why position is important and how to use it, Sizing your bets correctly, and when to get aggresive.

This forum has soom good stuff post hands your unsure off, ask questions about concepts you are struggling with.

Use good bankroll management, its probally best you search up on that there are various different ideas on that, basically dont go broke quickly, good luck.

Sorry if this is incoherantt its late here and didnt plan on posting...

Here is something that you must keep in mind and never ever forget it. The books you are reading are not geared towards how to win at play money games or even micro limits. They were written for the most part with higher stakes in mind. If you try to apply these book smarts to these games you will lose because people do not fold in these games and live for the dream flop/suckout.

If you are going to play a beginer strategy have a look at the first chapter of Daniel Negraneu's book on Low Ball poker.

I would also advise that you play only play money to learn more about what hands will get you to the river. Starting selection is such a huge part of any poker game and position is critical.

Whatever you do, stick to one thing, I started playing MTT's and the occasional STT, but I lost most what I won at the cash table.

There's a different set of skills required to play cash/MTT/STT, there are also nuances between 6 max, HU, full ring.

So my advice would be to play what suits you best and try to get as good as possible in that specific game.

glglglgl !

Suggest you join the FulltiltPoker Academy and read some of the sessions and lessons. Lots of good stuff there.

Good Luck

Poker Orifice: Yeah, I've read that it's important to play tight-aggressive in order to win in the long run. I've tried playing like that, but I think I over-think certain things. I lost 5$ in one hand because I called an all-in bet, where I was certain he was bluffing. He kept showing weakness throughout the play (I had AK suited, flopped top pair), he checked and called only until the river (which was a random low card, no draws, and he went all-in). Turned out he had three of a kind 3's at the flop. Really showed me that I just need to play only the best hands, seems like playing "by the charts" work better for the micros. I guess you're right about the real money suggestions, I've gotten so much great advice now that it wouldn't even make sense if it was in order to make money off me. I got the Little Green Book today, so I'm gonna be reading that a few times, then start playing SNG again (without applying the more advanced strategies) and probably will try tournaments later on. Do you have suggestions for online guides, I've found a lot but most just explain the basic rules of the game and some self-explanatory stuff.

joemac696969: Thanks, good luck to you too. I'll try to read some more and then start out with the micros again, I really don't like play money if I can be a break-even player with real money.

salim271: You mean Full Tilt, or cardschat? I'll definitely check out freerolls when I have 65 posts, might be a while though.

PattyR: Thanks, you too!

Mr McCluskey: A lot of good advice, thanks! I've tried paying attention to other players, some of the first games I played I noticed I was able to steal the blinds constantly, others people would call all the time. I've read about position as well, offers a lot of strategic advantages for sure, though reads are hard with so many random calls. I also need to learn to calculate the outs and odds quicker, or just memorize it.

kmixer: Yeah, I've noticed that. Other than starting hands, I know the strategy is pretty much useless. Still, I feel it'll only help me in the long run to get an idea of how the game work at higher stakes and tournaments, since I don't plan on playing micros forever. I might check out Daniel Negreanu's book, though I got the Little Green Book already and shipping costs are expensive!

ZZFLOP: Thanks, I think I'll stick to SNG for now and try tournaments later on. I'll learn about the strategies of each type of game before I play in them.

perry: I already joined, problem is I already deposited with PokerStars. I guess I could cash-out and join Full Tilt, but I've heard it's a lot more competitive. It's too bad I can't access most of their videos now, and seems like you can end up losing a lot of money completing their challenges, if you need them before you can start playing winning poker!

Lost $5 in one hand? How much is your bankroll? I would have to guess you are playing too high of stakes unless you deposited a lot or had tripled up on the 2NL tables. If playing cash I would stick to 2NL as a beginner.

Seriously practice good BRM its not that people don't want you winning more money, its there so you never go broke. Some people seem to think by going up in stakes they will win more because their are less "donks" but if you can't beat the worst players at the lowest limits what would make you think you can beat the "better" players at the next level.

*Im a SnG player and I now really hate playing in the $1 9 person SnGs, but I worked my way though them and think that everybody should work their way up as you learn a lot.