When is a hand officially over

Hi,
I have recently played in a live game with friends when an all in was played between 2 players, the dealer declared the winner who took the chips but then another player noticed that the other player had actually won the hand. The cards had been collected but the next hand was not in progress, at what point does a hand become complete. There must ba a point where a hand officially ends and players have no come backs.

Also, if someone who is all in thinks they have lost a hand after all cards are down and throws their cards to the middle then discovers they have won, what happens, have they folded or do the cards speak more than the players when 2 players are all in?

Can you belive both these happened at the same hand, why do I play with clowns!!!!!

I believe once the cards hit the muck, the hand is done.

This should be in the Learning Poker forum.

If you throw your cards in the muck pile, they are considered dead, regardless of whether you won or not. It's the dealer's responsibility to see who REALLY won. But, if the dealer's wrong, you can point out that the other player should have won. Once the cards are collected, the hand is done.

Thanks, I was along the lines of the answers submitted but just wondered if there was an official point the hand ended, ironically the guy who lost but was awarded the chips was the next dealer so the cards got collected pretty quickly, say no more.

Is everyone in agreement that once the player lets the cards leave his control or area of the table he is sat at they are dead cards and classed as mucked?

I can't speak for everyone but I will say yes.

Yes, once a hand is mucked the cards are dead. So, it does appear that in this case that the hand was over!

If I were in my home game and someone that was not in the hand pointed out to another player that their hand was better before they mucked, I wouldn't be very happy.

Absolutely-according to Robert's rules of Poker once a player throws their cards in a forward motion face down the hand is considered mucked and collected by the dealer. And as for the guy not in the hand-he should keep his mouth shut.

Ya I 2nd that notion

I agree that once the cards are mucked they are dead with no come back.

I've seen guys on TV muck cards that were actually winners. I'm talking at the end when there are two players left and they are both not sure who won and one just assumes he lost and mucks when he actually was the winner. Talk about not wanting to give information going to the extreme.

Just for fun- here's a link when Phil Ivey mucks the winning hand.

http://blog.mlive.com/deadmoney/2009...ng_hand_d.html

I disagree with everyone.

Situation 1:
Player A has winning hand, Player B has losing hand, both table their hand (face up on table).
For whatever dumb reason player B ends up getting shipped the pot.
Cards are mucked and next hand dealt.
Player A say "what?! I won, I had x", I'm not sure on how much verification is needed but usually people have seen it and will speak up, in this case, player A gets the chips.

Situation 2:
Player A has winning hand, thinks it's a loser, throws it towards the muck (but it doesn't hit it), cards land face up. His hand has been tabled and player B now has to show to win, if he can't show a better hand, player A wins.

However if player A didn't put his cards face up, his hand is folded and it doesn't matter what he says, he loses.

Edit: Ugh, I should actually read to the end of at least the first post before posting.
Regardless, the whole point is whether or not the cards were face up.

The only part I disagree with some of the others here is the guy not in the hand not speaking up. If they were already on the next hand, then yes it's pointless. If the cards had not been collected though and the chips are about to be shipped to the wrong guy, then he has every right to speak up whether he was in the hand or not. Your always looking for the proper outcome so he should say something to make sure the game is fair.

Ordinarily a hand is dead if it hits the muck. If it can be clearly identified then there are situations where it can be resurrected though. From Robert's Rules:

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

In this case, the player has been given incorrect information (by the dealer, no less) so I think there's a solid case to be made for resurrecting the hand from the muck and awarding the pot to the rightful player - assuming the cards can be identified and the correct number of chips can be returned to the pot. If it's a friendly game I'd even be inclined to ship the pot (or as close an approximation as could be made) to the player if everyone at the table was in agreement that they definitely showed the winning hand.

So the suggestion that once cards hit the muck they are always dead is completely wrong. They're dead most of the time, but not all of the time. You can't just read a single line in Robert's Rules, you need to read the exceptions as well.

This^^^^^
Oz beat me to it I had this exact thing happen to me in a casino, I had been betting the whole hand with top 2 pair and getting called down by 1 guy on the river he bet and I called and said 2 pair he flips his cards up and says I missed my straight, the dealer mucks his cards and gives me the pot,but another player said wait you had 3 5 you had the straight and others agreed I said I didnt see his handso I don't know what he had. They call the floor over and tell them the situation the floor says we will have to stop the table and goto the cameras to see what happened, the other player said if you just give me half the pot we'll call it even and continue to play the chips were still in front of me so I agreed and the floor allowed that. I figured if he did have the straight then I lose all the chips this way I get at least my starting chips back.

Saw Poker Grump blog about something similar recently: http://pokergrump.blogspot.com/2010/...ll-part-1.html

I was a little surprised by how they handled the ruling:
http://pokergrump.blogspot.com/2010/...ll-part-2.html

Yeah like others said, once they muck, there is no turning back. I also seen this on a poker show too where someone mucked the best hand, I think it was on poker after dark. cant remember tho. But if 2 players are all in. no one should muck.