Wanting to get better; don't know where to begin.

Hello all, short-time reader, first post.

I've been playing no-limit poker for about 1 1/2 months. I got into the game because I watched my girlfriend play online, and the angle of mathematics appealed to me (I study economics and do sabermetrics for baseball). I started off playing for play money, considering I am a college student and don't have too much money to begin with. I read a ton of articles, watched a ton of videos of pros playing, studying the game, etc., and quickly moved up in "play chips" to about 3m. I learned about playing from position, check-raising, bluffing, and the like. The whole mathematical area of the game was simple for me; doing mathematical calculations at the table is easy, and I think it's the strongest point of my game.

Saying this, I deposited $20 on Carbon. I've floated around the $15 mark for a little while (mostly playing low-limit SnG's and the freeroll MTTs). Most of the people who play these jam all-ins with any court card and ace. I've finished first in quite a few, but never to get over my small deposit amount. I seem to be getting crushed by ridiculous hands (losing KK against another KK, villain rivered a flush). I play pretty ABC poker; tight-aggressive, but I mix it up sometimes by playing pocket 8s from the CO.

I understand about variance, have a deep understanding of game theory (have written a few papers about it myself), and EV. It frustrates me to no end that people will go in with any hand (losing AA to 43o, villain flops trips). I stick to my game, but sometimes it's very hard to avoid tilt. I think another strong point I have is that if I know I'm going on tilt, I stop playing and review my hands. My two biggest leaks are not being able to really peg players on hole cards (getting called down on 3xBB raise with them holding 83o does this), and the fact that I despise losing.

I'm posting this because I want to become a better player. I personally don't feel like I'm a bad player, but I don't think I'm that good. I'd rather be brutally honest with myself than lie and pretend I can knock out Phil Ivey at the WSOP. I just would like to know if I should be playing more suited connectors, 2 gappers, et. al from the button, or how to realistically improve my post-flop play. Or is it more that I'm afraid of losing, and I need to suck it up and realize suckouts happen?

TL;DR - I want to be a better player, and I feel like a donk at times.

I suggest you give cash games a try. Here, you aren't under the pressure of rising blinds. You play the hand you want to.

I stay away from MTTs largely cuz of the crazy shove-a-thons at the low levels and I can't afford to play the higher ups. I only play at the CC freerolls or the freebies I can use points for.

I am very results oriented. At the end of the day, it's all about winning money, and no matter how well you play at these SNGs and MTTs, one bad break and you've just wasted a lot of time.

Where do I begin? A guide for beginners

this should get you started

pm me if you have some questions, being a broke college student, i empathize w/your situation haha

First off, welcome to Cards Chat! Take some time to read through the hundreds of helpful threads we have here and you'll be off to a great start.

You state that you have a good understanding of game theory. This is good. So I'm hoping you know that being a competent player at play chips means almost nothing when you are playing for real money.

That being said, I think you are vastly over thinking here, and it's hurting your performance.

The secret to beating micro SNG is this: Shove/fold.

It is oh so simple. Don't worry about suited connectors, or adding more gappers to your range.

Play tight. Play hands like A10s+, 1010+, and KQs and os (off suit) from late position and not much else. Fold marginal hands in the blinds.

Be the one raising/shoving. Don't enter a multiway pot out of position ever unless holding AKs, KK, AA. Check/fold it when you miss, bet/raise when you hit. No need to try to "mix it up" because nobody will notice. You should have a reason and plan for every action you take, and should never try to get fancy and "outplay" your opponent. Straightforward play will yeild the best results.

If you are playing regular speed SNG then you actually have a fair amount of time to sit back and watch your opponents. Take mental notes of hands you see them showdown with and what position that was from. This will help you get better at assigning hand ranges.

NLHE is easy to learn, but hard to do well at. 1 1/2 months is not a lot of experience. In time you will get good enough to expand your game, but for now you want to focus on adding to your bankroll.

And in regards to to that last statement: Never be afraid to lose. Take into consideration all factors you have observed, make a decision and live with the end result good or bad. The better decisions you make at the table, without worrying about the "what if I'm wrong and lose this game" in the back of your mind, the better you will be as a player.

Glad to have you here, and I hope I didn't scare you off already with my rant.

Blue: I try to play cash games, but it's the same "I get cold cards or someone rivers the nuts" kind-of thing.

Deuces: I've had your article bookmarked since I found this site/started playing poker . That being said, it's a great read through all of it, and being broke while paying $200 or more for textbooks isn't fun.

KAAHK (lol): I only started playing for play chips because about 2 weeks ago I had no idea what a flush was. True story.

I have been raising/shoving, it just seems like the bad beats on the river keep multiplying, and it's costing me my $20 deposit ha. But really, I have only been shoving with premium pairs, and hard raising with top pair top kick and jamming if they re-raise. It's usually that the flop misses me, and by that time I don't have the odds to call someone down.

I seem to run into people who give me really egregious odds to call them down with. It's usually on the flop, even when I'm playing top pair-top kick. I understand that I'm exaggerating that no flop ever hits me, but lately on Carbon, I haven't been getting any. Obviously this happens, but what I am kind-of concerned with is how to play strong post-flop, even with nothing.

It's a lot of "people play like maniacs, I can't really peg them on anything" kind of thing.

What I mean is that bad beats will cost you less in cash games. You may lose a buy in but you can get that back quickly. In a tourney, a terribly timed bad beat means you wasted 3 hours of your life and got nothing.

I get killed by these bad playeres all the time. Just had one where this guy goes all in with 57 offsuit preflop against my overpair and hits a flush with runner runner spades. I don't think I would remain sane if that BS happened to me at MTTs. I had a stretch of 3 months where I was in the red... which I had never experienced before.

But at the end of the day, as long as you play well, you'll be a winner at cash. I've now won more in the last two months than I had in the previous six. Not so sure about MTTs because it depends a lot on where you finish and when the good/breaks happen to you.

In micro SNG, you should try to size your bets and be in the position so there
really is no post flop play. Stacks are by nowhere deep enough to be screwing around past the flop.

And learn to love the variance because it is inescapable.

Also, you should heed blueskies' advice and try cash games as well. Far less pressure to "build your stack" because there are no blinds and antes. Each hand can be played optimally without the concerns for structure.

Stay away from MTT for now. It'll just slowly drain your 'roll.

You may want to remind yourself that if you have an unpaired hand, whether AK or 72, the flop will miss you about 2/3 of the time. From there, it's not a big step to feeling like it never hits you.

As for beating micros, in full ring cash games, solid TAG is a winning approach. As a simplification, if you make fewer poor or questionable judgments than your opponents - most of whom will make plenty - you'll be +EV. You won't win every session, but you will be profitable over a decent sample size, 6max is similar, but you have to widen your hand selection ranges and allow for more variance.

As for MTTs, they tend to be high-variance because the payout structures are typically set so only about 10% of the players cash. Again, solid play will win, but it can take a while for the variance to even out. I can't count how many times I've gone 15, 20, 25 and sometimes even more tournaments without cashing. It's just how it is.

I haven't played a ton of STTs, but again, I've found that simply playing solid is profitable.

Note that I'm talking about making a profit, not maximizing it. That's a different albeit related topic. IMO, it's better to treat it as a second step. Remember that the majority of players, probably the large majority, are not profitable. So just becoming +EV is quite significant.

Bad-beats are part of the game, you just have to take them as they come.
At the start of an SNG, you want to play tight, and after the blinds are 50/100 you want to open up your hand range..
Noone wants to be bubble boy when 4 are left, and at this time you can pick on the short stacks
Thought it's more or less like everyone else has said, simply playing solid is profitable.

Bad beats are irrelevant. Don't think about them or worry about them, they happen in all forms of poker. If it were like chess where the superior player/position wins 99.9% of the time, bad players would stop playing.

Don't try to peg someone on a specific hand. Think about their actions and the range of hands that they might have. Then compare your equity (use a program like pokerstove to figure out certain spots) against their range of hands.

Results of a hand are also irrelevant. Don't think about it in terms of winning or losing a hand; instead, improve your decision making. If someone shows up with a hand that you hadn't even considered, you have to readjust your thinking about their range. If a specific player, or more accurately, a specific type of player, always shows up with a better hand in a certain spot, you should again reconsider whether your judgments about their range is correct.

Thanks everyone for the advice. Really appreciate it.

The thing is, I can calculate equity and EV without having to use pokerstove or anything like that. I guess that's good. The problem is, with good hands in good position, the flop comes and it completely goes against what I have (i.e. pair of kings, flop drops two aces). I understand in certain situations, people will bluff the flop (or semi-bluff), but I always assume the worst and fold out because of what I feel another player is holding (holding an inside straight draw against a flush draw).

It's hard to put people on range at micro-limits (for me, anyway). The whole game theory aspect is that two players are playing rationally, and in my problem, the one is not. I find it very difficult to put people on range when it's extremely unpredictable, and when I do have premium hands, I get beat by lesser draws, or someone rivers trips.

Also, I never go all-in with AK, and I will fold it if I completely miss the flop and get a heavy bet into me. I'll only jam if there's a 3bet. I just find people raise so egregiously that it gives me ridiculous odds to call (someone bets 50c into a .02c pot, etc). It's usually that people in low-stakes cash games that someone will go in on something ridiculous (Q3o OoP), double-up, and just deepstack other players. I understand that it's hard to avoid, but I don't really know how to combat that because I usually end up losing most of my stack with premium hands, and having to fold out because of inappropriate odds to call.

Just keep playing your best game. Getting better at figuring ranges and the meanings in their actions will come with experience.

Don't be discouraged.

What is your equity with JJ vs. a range of TT-AA, AQs, AKs, AK?

That's because you're a first-level thinker and can see the board and your own cards.

If you're going to fold when you miss the flop then it is rational to call with any 2 cards and bluff. Of course it is difficult to put people on ranges because you've never thought of ranges before. People's ranges are NOT unpredictable, they pretty much are what they are, you just aren't compiling enough information to accurately construct them.

Having hard and fast rules like never going all-in with AK is bad. Make your decisions based on equity vs. their range.

This is how i feel everyday! I am so mad when playing " good " and losing it makes you want yo rip you freaking computer to shreads...

being results-oriented is the biggest downfall of any poker player

I know.... its horrid but thats psychology of the mind.

Against KK, TT, and AK, JJ has about a 19% equity.

It's not about being a "first level thinker". It's based on assumptions that players think rationally. It's more about that players will call down absolutely anything and catch draws on the river, regardless of how much I've raised to steal the pot. I can ascertain when someone is holding top pair, top kick kind-of-deal, but if someone goes in with A3o, how are you supposed to know that they're range spreads to every card in the deck? Even sitting on premium hands sometimes doesn't work, because whenever I try to jam them, they still call down and catch a card on the river.

I don't like to go all-in with AK mainly because of the fact it's a drawing hand, and 9/10 I feel like the flop is going to draw to the other player. So I make adjustments to my own play based on previous situations. I guess I phrased it wrong saying "I'll never go all-in with AK", but rather, I meant to say is I'll fold AK if I'm drawing dead and I'm heavily bet into.

Maybe it's bad to "assume the worst", I don't know. But what I do know is that trying to assess other players' hand range is quite difficult considering they play everything, and it's quite silly to believe everyone plays rationally. If they played rationally, everyone would have an EV of 0 and we'd end up with some type of strong Nash equilibrium.

To add: I wasn't saying I'll fold if I miss the flop, either. I'm just saying that the particular ranges that I can try to get from people would end with them beating me, i.e. in a situation where I'm holding pocket kings, flop trips, and lose to a flush draw even though I give the other player inappropriate odds to call me down. It's stuff like raise 4xBB otb with pocket aces, villain re-raises all-in, I call that, and lose to a 32o because of a two pair.

I guess the fact is that I need to get better at assuming ranges when not faced with all-in situations, and improve my post-flop play (which I have no idea how to go about that). I would say a big problem of mine is that I assume people play rationally, and I probably shouldn't think like that.

Like I said, you are over thinking it.

"The whole mathematical area of the game was simple for me; doing mathematical calculations at the table is easy, and I think it's the strongest point of my game."

-I envy you for this. I'm also good at numbers but not as strong as you stated above. I wish i could have your skill. I also say that you already have a huge advantage over you opponents because of that.

"I try to play cash games, but it's the same "I get cold cards or someone rivers the nuts" kind-of thing. "

-Why not try Mike Caro's Book of Tells. You can download it for free. Or better yet, try watching his Videos on You Tube. You can win a lot in Cash Games because of Tells. Emotions are very hard to fake!!!

That's incorrect, and it's so incorrect I think you should seriously re-evaluate how much you think you understand common equities.

JJ is 53.6% vs. TT,AK, KK. Of course that's not the range I gave you, which was TT-AA, AK, AQs. It makes no sense whatsoever to put TT, KK in someone's range and not JJ, QQ, AA. Against TT-AA, AK, AQs, JJ has 44%.

Assuming that people play rationally is incorrect. Also, what you assume to be rational may not be relevant because you don't know what you're doing. The fact that you want people to fold draws or weak hands regardless of how much you've raised reveals serious fundamental flaws in your thinking.

Do you want people to fold weak hands? If so, then you may want to ask yourself how you intend to make money playing poker. If someone's range is wide, it is very simple to adjust to that. You value bet thinner.

If you get it in good and they call with worse, then that's good. Whether they catch a card on the river or not doesn't matter. RESULTS DO NOT MATTER.

Saying AK is a drawing hand is standard first-level beginner/fish thinking. You just said how often people call with anything, so obviously AK is better than anything, even unimproved. Thinking of hands as "made hands" and "drawing hands" is useless because hands have equities vs. ranges, and AK's equity is better than most "made hands." If you think that 9/10ths of the time the flop will go the other way, then you simply don't understand anything about the math of poker, and it's important for you to understand why.

lol..so true, as a begginer aswell, i find the run of cold cards and virtually unplayable cards boggles my mind more than anything i can remember, especially party poker....its impossible even in cash games, its as if its geared to drive you into full on tilt, easy to convince yourself of anything when you cant win a hand i think..!

Assuming people should play rationally tends to mean that you think they should play both predictably and in the way you think is best, which generally means you think they should play more like you do. That's simply not how poker works. At micro-stakes, far more profit comes from opponents' misplays and poor judgments than from playing brilliantly and making fancy, high-level plays and/or heroic folds. Consistently get your chips in good in big pots and you'll make money. Just give less back or break even on the rest of the hands, and you'll be profitable.

You really need to stop believing that the reason you lose money is all the suckouts you suffer - presumably while at least breaking even the rest of the time. Over a significant sample size, this such an improbable scenario that you can / must ignore it.

What's more, as long as you tell yourself you're losing due to luck, it serves to hinder or even block yourself from finding and addressing the real reasons.

I need to play like a robot.... Would totally change my plays I bet xD

My apologies. I thought you meant like these people are playing these hands right now, instead of this is the range and calculate equity. Didn't read it right.

I wasn't talking about wanting people to fold out on straight draws or flush draws when the flop has already come. I'm talking about people that end up WINNING because of PREFLOP action, (i.e. I go all-in with AA and lose to 42o) kind of thing. If I have a made hand already on the flop and someone is chasing a draw, I wouldn't expect them to fold out but I'd give them wonky odds to call. I understand getting monster hands cracked, but I'm asking is how to put people on range because I seem to never have a good idea when they're holding rags or holding monster hands (they all raise/go all in on the same things).

All I hear about thinking "rationally" is play premium hands from good position. I'm telling you, I sat there and read every article I could possibly find on odds to position to whatever. If I'm sticking to my "best game" (playing only premium hands, premium pairs), why is it that people go all-in PREFLOP with nothing? All I'm saying is it makes it hard to play against and I'm wondering how to assign range to that. I haven't gotten anything about "try to assign ranges like this", or "here's what I do".

What is AK if it's not a drawing hand then?

There's obviously no truth in saying that the flop will go 9/10 the other way. But there are times that it seriously feels like that.

I want to improve putting people on range, and improve postflop play. I can tell when someone has the best of it, pretty much tell when someone is bluffing. But so far, I feel no one has actually "helped me out" and just said "I'm wrong because x". I might be totally wrong and the worst player ever. Great. I just want to improve my game.

You need to listen to this guy - you may be a demon at game theory and math but everything you have posted screams poker newbie (1st level thinker). Not an insult - we all started there at sometime. There are an incredible number of nuances and variables (not just math). You simply have not not seen enough hands to experience the reality of the theory. We are talking thousands upon thousands of hands you must experience to start deciphering the game. When your experience catches up your 1st level thinking will become automatic and you will start going deeper - it is only your lack of experience hindering that right now. Hang in there and keep playing - come this spring you will be saying things like - "I never would have played it that way last Thanksgiving", "That was never a consideration a few months ago", etc

I deal with mathematics and equations every day. I read all these articles about calculations of equity and hand ranges, and all I want to do is get a good grip on it so I know how to play better. I don't think I'm good, I've said it before. I just want help as to "what I actually need to do to get better" kind-of thing.

http://www.pokerlistings.com/strateg...ent-on-a-range
I think it would serve you better at this time in your short career to read Phil Gordon and then Dan Harrington to ingrain some of the basics of startegy and play that your opponents may or may not be using.
Keep in mind a lot of the low stakes players are not strategists - they are gamblers and approach poker not much differently than they do the roulette table - this is good - you want this. You also want them to win and win big periodically as it reinforces their actions in the future. In other words it is nothing to complain about.

http://www.pokerlistings.com/strateg...ent-on-a-range
I think it would serve you better at this time in your short career to read Phil Gordon and then Dan Harrington to ingrain some of the basics of strategy and play that your opponents may or may not be using.
Keep in mind a lot of the low stakes players are not strategists - they are gamblers and approach poker not much differently than they do the roulette table - this is good - you want this. You also want them to win and win big periodically as it reinforces their actions in the future. In other words it is nothing to complain about.

Ok well do this, post some HH (Hand History) of some sessions you play, cash or sng doesn't matter just post in the correct section on the forum. Give detail info on the players involved (reads) and let us analyse your play. I assure you this will help you as you will see we will be able to determine a range fairly quickly. Don't post the results of the hand until the review is complete.GL

[quote]
Do you think going all-in preflop with 42o is profitable? Do you think getting stacks in with AA is profitable? I'm sure you can answer these questions so there's no need for further discussion on this topic.

If you have AA and get it in pre vs. 42o, THE RESULT OF THE HAND DOES NOT MATTER! If people are going in preflop with any two cards, then get it in pre with hands that have good equity vs. any two cards (i.e., a lot of hands worse than AA).

You should probably stop thinking about hands in terms of "made hands" and "drawing hands" and think about hands in terms of equity. AT spades on QJ9ss flop is a monster hand with incredible equity even vs. a tight range; 99 on a KQJ flop is a marginal hand with terrible equity vs. any continuing range.

Patience. You have already begun. If you rush things along too fast, you will be disappointed.

Thats what I did. I have hit myself in the head 2 many times for being such a donk early on... What i know now... Trumps everything I did in he past.

Sorry, had to....

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If you keep looking around the forum, you will see that some very advanced and thoughtful players/posters are involved in this discussion, and there are many of us who are reading along and learning as well.

So I thank you all for the lively debate

My dumb psychological tip is this: when you suck out or get lucky (even if it is simply your cards holding up vs a big draw) give it a physical action (I enjoy the double-overhead-fist-pump) -- I have found this helps me remember these fortunate events, and then when I do have some bad luck, I am better able to remember that the variance is indeed just that...

I look forward to reading some of your hand histories threads!!