Still learning, discouraged any advice?

So i took up limit holdem about a month ago. Have been trying to read as much as i can i picked up "Small Stakes Holdem" sklansky/miller book and i have almost read it twice.

I feel that i understand the concepts in the book but have problems appling them to the game sometimes. i figure that is from lack of playing and seeing the hands.

So right now i play on FT the lowest limit tables are .25/.50 so i have been playing them no other range since i dont want to lose anymore money.

After 1900 hands im down $30, from all of the talk here and on 2+2 i feel that im just bad. It seems that i should be able to at least break even at these limits. So im writing to ask what sort of advice from others that are doing well could give.

I feel that my math skills are good enough to be able to do the odds on the fly and there is a small chart in couting odds compared to outs in the book taht i reference.

I think that sometimes i still get the outs wrong depending on the board maybe counting a few to many or less due to draws, but it seems that doing that sometimes shouldnt effect my play this much.

i have about $100 left in the account but i dont want to just keep playing with no hope of turning this around. I like everyone else have times that i make money but im still down as a whole.

Do you guys think its just lack of experience right now? Need to run some more hands while continuing to study?

My PT stats atm are VP18.5 / PF 8.3 / AF2.7, which from what ive read arent that bad and are pretty normal for a TAG type player which is what i would like to be.

Anyway thanks for reading and any advice is welcome

$30 at .25/.50 isn't very much at all, Peanut...and you've hardly played any hands. Give it some time, its too bad you're at Full Tilt while trying to learn, you could be playing .05/.10 elsewhere until you got the hang of it. I'm not sure what kind of PT stats are reccommended for limit play...

Low stakes limit games can be rough online. It is, what it is. Low stakes. (it's also the limit range I play in) Reading books is great for advice - in general, but nothing substitutes for practice. Books cannot cover every situation. Tight table, loose, mixed, position, situation, maniacs, scared money, and the non-forgiving ever present rake.

Check the lobby before you pick a table. It shows you what the average pot sizes are running. If you're concerned about bigger pots, stick with a short table. Fewer players can often mean fewer callers and smaller pots overall.

Sometimes it is wise to watch a table before joining. Check stack sizes, watch for chip bullies, etc. Getting a partial table read before joining can be extremely valuable when working with a limited BR. Why plunk your buckeroos down on a table that doesn't 'feel' right?

In limit, also keep in mind that most low stakes players are generally not willing to fold many hands. Let a few orbits go around and protect your blinds, if you can. Gives you a better feel for the table.

Patience, patience, patience. Limit games are for grinding it out. Even playing tight, I won't get too aggressive early in a hand. There are a lot of chasers in limit games - and they do hit. Wait for the right hand -AND- position, then play your best TAG game.

Don't get discouraged with just a month under your belt. I started playing 7stud and 5draw in '69 when nl holdem tables were sitting empty at the casinos. 1900 hands is not a very large number in determining profit and loss. A month into a new game for you and only a $30 loss isn't all that bad. There are swings in limit, just not as drastic as no limit. If you like the game, stick with it.

Maybe try the $1 single table SNGs.

It just means that the most you will loose in a game is $1

Poker takes awhile to find your feet in .. Im only just starting to get there myself.

As said before.. books are OK for the beginner but TBH SSH by miller is fairly advanced.

I have read loads of books .. and did so from the day I started playing.. but they dont really help that much in the beginning.

Right now, get your pot odds sorted.. learn to count your outs correctly and maybe start looking on interperating the players ranges. That said at micro levels people dont always play consistantly enough to make this a huge edge for you.

Experience is verything right now. Dont read it a third time... leave the study alone for a few months and just play and get more experience. Then refine your game once you are able to notice that someone is playing tight / loose / manic. Learn to guage when someone is likely to fold to a cbet and what it means when they dont.

Keep your eyes on stack size because a sizable bet from a short stack will usually be raised to all in... So when the bet be prepared for them to shove!!

This forum is great for specific questions so post your hands in the analaysis formum and ask questions here.

THB $30 is nothing!!! If you enjoy poker and dont loose more than say $10 a week then thats fine.... what else could you do for so many hours for $10 a week???

experience takes time. Just stick to good bankroll managment (search for post on it if you are unsure) and try not to do anything too fancy at the table.. at low stakes it simply dosnt work.. When Miller talks of low stakes its upto around the $3/6 mark. Fancy stuff dosnt work because of hoe bad players play at micro stakes!!!

Anyway. Enjoy it.. if you like playing then play.. If you were hoping to have poker pretty much wrapped up by now and looking to be a pro by next month.. it aint that easy!!!! LOL

Just realised that you are playing LIMIT poker.

Id change to No-Limit!!!

I started off with limit but the problem with micro stakes is that too many people call. This means that pot odds are usually correct for later callers regardless of the cards they hold!!

At higher stakes (remember $3/6 is still low stakes) but probably high enough to cut down the early callers.

With all of these callers you are bound to get outdrawn!!!

$1 nolimit SNGs are prob the best place to start. Limit is all about the maths but as I said before at micro stakes you probably arnt making a mathmatical error!!!

SNG is a really good idea for sure. i have been wanting to play NL for a while but didnt really want to risk my BR due to the swings. i went ahead and played a SNG tonight after reading your response it was a 15 point entry one. i figured those were better than money for now lol.

My NL experience thus far has been pretty slim. i did finish 46th in the 180 sng. But playing ring i have only played about 200 hands.

Looking forward to more advice keep it coming its all appreicated.

Hey don't be too discouraged. Down 30 after 1900 hands doesn't make you bad at all especially considering you just started. Considering the rake it probably makes you above average.

sngs are the way to go.
And some forun freerolls as well.
I myself only play 1% of my bankroll at a time.
With $70 in your account you can start at the $1 sngs'
and as your bankroll gets bigger you can move up to a higther buyin.
If you are finding the next level to hard / then move back to a level where you feel your better suited.
Get the bankroll up again and have another crack at the next level.

i myself find $5 sngs not too bad.
However the $10 sngs did damage to my bankroll so im back at $5.
Got the bankroll up a bit and now almost ready to have another go at $10 games.

good luck

I started by playing tournament freerolls and low limit sit&gos. I really think the s&gs are the best place to learn. Just be sure to play a buy-in that you're comfortable with - don't overstep too early.

if i were you id play some .3 .10 games instead of the higher steaks if you are still in traing camp

only problem with that is i play on FT which the lowest is .5/.10 NL and .25/.50 Limit

have faith and patience and play only very good cards and I believe you will be very successful in the long run.

I agree with Stu switch to no limit, fast! You have to understand that with limit games (especially low limit ones) people are going to chase and it's not going to be easy to get people to go away when you have a hand. That being said, you have to know when something hits the board, it's a pretty safe bet someone hit it and know to go away.

Hang on in the small limit tables. Players dont fold much. But remember to keep patient. THe more u play the better the understanding of a cash table. All kinds of weird things to think about in cash tables. But KEep at and a 30 dollar loss is pretty nice. Keep it up and itll turn around

SNG's are a different game altogether. Pick what you want to play in and then seek out info. on how to go about it. Most people play sngs incorrectly (I'd guesstimate that at least 75 - 80% of them are pretty clueless). SNG's have a pretty distinct way of being played and are quite a bit different from cashgame play. MTT's are another go. Personally I prefer mtts but am in the process of making a transition over to cashgame play (I've already done the sng thing... ran with an ROI+15% for 6mos. then took a brutal swing.. the VARIANCE in the micro buyins is a killer imo).
If SNG's are where you want to focus your play on, I have some great internet e-books I could pass your way if you want to pm me.
If Mtts are where you think you might want to give a shot, try picking up a copy of Harrington On Holdem Vol.1 (tournament play), and then Vol.2 You cannot go wrong with reading these two books as they will serve you well. THere is also a discussion thread here on Cardschat by some members who are working their way thru Vol.1 right now and I don't think they're too far into it yet (I haven't really checked it out but have read Harrington's books cover-to-cover at least a half dozen times.. yah.. I'm an avid poker book freak,.. funny how the books seem to have been written differently once you play for a month or two and then pick the book back up again,.. almost like the author mysteriously snuck in and changed a bunch of the words, lol).
It really depends on what types of games you prefer. Myself, I really liked tournaments at first but also didn't always have the time to make the committment to playing in them (5hrs. if you're planning on making it to the final table,.. and if you're not planning on that, then why enter them), so I began to play sngs as well.
Then I focused on sngs for awhile, read just about everything I could find on them and made them my main focus. Preference went back to mtts cuz I liked that there was more play in them (deeper stack play, etc.).
Now.. who knows.. I like mtts but I'm also beginning to like cashgame play more too (I like the idea of gradually grinding out a steady increase to the poker bankroll). Tournaments are cool though,... nothing quite beats the feeling of going deep in a NLHE tournament, not to mention pulling in a decent cash in one of them (actually on my very first night on Fulltilt, I took a 2nd in a super micro buyin mtt, the Donka.. I mean Ferguson, for $114 from a $1 entry fee... I was hooked!!).
Good Luck on your online poker journey. Lots of experience and advice on this site for sure!! If you want any advice on books, etc., just pm me.
GL!

well all i can say is to keep playing and only play good hands and be aggressive with them, but after all im not a big fan of limit holdem because its hard to win a lot of money...

Man, a month is nothing. Nothing at all. And you are discouraged? Man... you have a very long ways to go, years to get comfortable, and forums like this can help, but dont expect immediate results from anything you try, from poker to motocross, you will be perpetually discouraged. Take it as a learning game and exercise and enjoy as you learn... sure u will lose a few bucks but when you learn BRM you can correct that largely. 30 bucks? Cmon.

thanks for the continued encouragement guys. i had figured that i was on the right track but man it felt like i was just screwing it up

Hey,

This is coming from another new player, and I just wanted to point out maybe a sort of compromise?

I started playing free rolls at ultimate bet a while back, so my biggest experience came from MTT (3k people entries, needed to finish top 50, etc). I'm still very bad on consistency, I'll finish in the money in some 700+ people tournaments, and then in smaller SnG's I just play like an idiot.

The point to that all that is my cash game experience was terrible, and I found the best way for me to learn on a small bankroll was the 0.05/0.10 pot limit holdem tables on Fulltilt. Pot limit helps keep those pre-flop maniacs from raising huge amounts, but still gives you the flexibility after the flop to bet well enough. I usually come into those with 9 bucks and try to set a limit: if I go below 5/6 then I get up and regroup, obviously I'm not playing right (or I got beat bad once or twice). It's a great way for me to work my way towards NL, but not get burned bad due to my inexperience.

My friend started playing recently, and has made 200 bucks from 2 tournaments he placed high in. He's not very good, takes way too many chances, and gets burned a lot too; just so happens in those two tournaments he either got lucky enough or everything clicked for those 2-4 hours. I keep telling myself (and kept telling him early on when he was losing) that consistency over time is the key to poker, and in my mind your bankroll is only as consistent as your play, it just tends to lag behind a bit at times =P

Anyways, great thread to read, as I needed some encouragement as well

This makes sense to me also, i am currently doing alot of the SnG's mostly the 180s atm since they are so cheap. But when i do live again i might try pot limit some and see how i like it. i know i have taken a few bad beats in NL and that just doesnt settle well when learning.

just read your post and I have to say that limit poker has a lot to do with the stakes you play. I usually play $5/$10 with a full kill at Foxwoods and have learned a lot on this game. The betting is $5 and capped at $20 ([pre]flop), then $10 and capped $40 (turn/river). The play is generally loose which gives all hands great pot odds and generates call stations down the line, because of these mentioned factors. Loose play, pot odds and call stations. the most you can put in play at this level is $120, which is typically a third of one's chip stack. When the stakes go up to $10/$20 the play gets tighter there are fewer players to each flop and often times you don't even see the river. This is because each bet and call eats a greater percentage of one's chip stack. What I am getting at is your game can be stronger on tables where players have less to invest. Of course the the price you will pay for more consistent winning pots will be smaller pot odds. Your bigger pots will be found on tables where players are throwing plenty around. Here patience is the key or you will go broke fast. This advice should aid in your decision on how you may want to approach limit poker in the future.

do alot of reading...jen harman is a great limit holdem player...its a patience game...never bluff in it

I have to agree with Stu, online cash tables are not a good starting point. Try sit and go tables

I agree with those who recommend SNGs. Personally I think low stakes cash games are a bit random, since the limits are so low and people tend to play risky hands simply because they don't care. And you might also want to consider playing no limit or pot limit, since no limit kind of ruins all the fun. I think playing limit hold'em is the same as playing 5 card draw or something; the whole element of bluffing and reading your opponents is totally missing out.

It's been said by others better than me that in limit hold em you play your cards, in no limit you play the players.

I started in limit and played it for a few years...did well on Party for about 2 years. I thought I was good but actually was just okay and when the players got better I started seeing huge swings.

Because most tournaments, with the most cash, are no limit, I switched games and my learning curve began all over again. One thing I've noticed is my swings are much milder. Player psychology, tendencies, and notes become much more important in no limit and definitely affect how you play.

If you like limit, really focus on it. Probably the best limit guide I've read was by Howard Lederer in his section of the "FTP Tournament Guide."

Don't switch games back and forth. Limit ring, SNG and MTT games are all very different. Sure, experiment a little, but work to find the one that's most comfortable for you.

DON'T switch between limit and no limit. The two games are completely different animals requiring totally different skill sets.

I actually like them both right, i started with limit becuase i was under the impression that NL had bigger swings and i wanted to avoid that. so i bought a couple Limit books and started studing. Now im not sure which i want to do but if i chose NL im going to be doing SNGs for a while.

On either note i guess i need to decide what i want to do.

I'm not suggesting you never play nl, but when you're just starting out there's enough to learn just playing one of them. Once you become comfortable with one, then I'd start trying out the other.

Ive already spent a small amout of time on limit and i have a couple books on it. i like playing it so ill probably stick with it for a time i think.