Small Pocket Pairs, Five Players Left

Are pairs more valuable, less valuable or the same when you are down to five players at the table? Just a random thought...

Attached Images

CC5playersPP.JPG (55.9 KB, 74 views)

I think the chance being dominated after flop is too high with
three opponents.
I would fold...

Of course your pair more valuable as the number of players is smaller.
In this specific case you have no choice but to fold.
But if all other player were fold their hand you would have go all-in.

I need to be 100% sure that you have understood the question that I am asking, because the fact that you include the words "of course" suggests that possibly you have misunderstood what I am asking.

Let me ask the question another way. Are pocket pairs more valuable, less valuable or the same in a 6-handed tournament as they are in a 9- or 10-handed tournament. The answer is definitely not "of course".

You play low pockets hoping to catch a set. That's true even when fewer people are at the table. You want to see the flop cheaply.

Some people play them hard preflop, but, IMO, that's much like shoving with bottom pair. Yes, any pair will beat A hi. And even a low pair is a pair. But they are kinda lame, and, to me, it's a desperation move to play them hard. So you will see me playing them when I am badly short stacked -- or cheaply when I have the big stack. But, mostly, I dump those losers.

How does the screenshot you've posted here even relate to your question?? This is a really easy fold btw.

Whether a sm pr. has more value or not with less players? It all depends on the situation.

Yes, small pairs become more valuable as the number of players decreases, just as smaller aces become more valuable as number of players decreases.

i like taking the pot preflop when possible with low pairs. with that many players you're really only looking to trap after the flop with a set.

I don't think the question can really be answered regarding the number of players left. As usual, the answer is "it depends".

Pocket pairs have great value when you are either deep stacked (>100BB) or short stacked (<15BB). Pretty worthless in the middle - sort of like a reverse bell curve.

Because there are five players at the table, and I had a pocket pair. If you were paying attention you would have noted that I have already folded, and the BB is considering what to do now.That's really helpful, thanks for such a well-explained set of examples. [/sarcasm]

Actually I was paying attention... perhaps my 'advice/comments' have gone over your head?
Do you want me to list like 20 different examples.. & then suggest how it would relate to each??? (no sarcasm.. being honest here0.
You can't put a particular hand in a box... you're not gonna get a black&white answer.. 'it depends'.

Pocket pairs are more valueable when there are less players.

Also I think it was Phil Gordon who said if there were more than 3 payers all in he would rather have pocket 5's than pocket K's.

The question is really whether or not to jam or fold here. Your chips are comfortable enough to fold. Given only one opponent in the hand and a shorter stack, I like to jam. I see no problem folding here, quite an easy move. Calling here is atrocious.

But yes, their value does go up short handed.

I suspect the usual fob-off answer of "it depends" does not apply in this instance, as I am asking a question that relates to statistical facts, not strategy. Whether pocket pairs are more valuable with fewer players at the table will be a mathematical and statistical fact. It doesn't depend.

Yes, I would love you to list 20 examples, and then suggest how it would relate to each. However what I would really prefer is somebody that actually understands the mathematics to give me a straight answer to a straight question. They don't necessarily even need to be a poker player, just somebody good at statistics. The closest I have come so far to what seems to be a credible answer is this one:Whereas various people seem to think that I am asking about how valuable they are depending on the number of people left in the hand, which is not what I am asking. I could use Pokerstove to tell me that.

My suggesting I list 20examples was being somewhat sarcastic (as I'm obviously never going to list off 20 examples on here for 'you'). THe jist of it was though to suggest > IT DEPENDS.

How would a statistical analysis of how valuable a sm pp would be on a table of fewer players, done by a non-poker player have any benefit at all? (and how would it relate to actual "situations" which you might be in at the time).
Honestly I detect a bit of an attitude from you when I've responded to some of your posts. I'm not sure why? (maybe it's my imagination).

It's not your imagination, but it would be a mistake to believe that it is aimed at you personally. I have enjoyed reading a lot of your posts at various forums, but I do loathe being fobbed off with "it depends". I apologise if my comments have been offensive.

There are a lot of situations in poker where it does depend, but I don't believe that it does in this case. If I took the time to read a book about 6-max the answer would probably be there, but what I like to do is pose questions here that pop into my head, because I don't want to read a whole book about 6-max just because I wonder in passing whether PPs are more valuable at tables with fewer players.

Some forum members give direct and concise answers to questions - some don't.One of my weaknesses is adjusting my range of starting hands when the number of players at a table reduces. I play too tight. If I know that PPs are more valuable in that situation I am more likely to play them, if they are less valuable I will be less likely to play them, if there's no difference it doesn't really matter.

I agree with PO that it`s not possible to say much of value in answer to the question without realating it to specific situations. However, in general terms:

Preflop, your 44 will be about 16.9% to win against 8 random other hands (ie. a 9 player table) and 12.6% against 5 (ie a 6 player table). This ratio will hold good for pretty much any playable hand, and therefore we can deduce the following:

Since 18-20% VPIP is typical for a sound tournament player at full tables, it follows that 24-27% will be appropriate in a six-handed tournament. If, as you say, you are familiar with Poker Stove, you can readily use it to determine what range of hands this equates to, and that will give you your answer as to playable hands. You will, of course, need to adjust in practice for position and stack size.

Suggesting that PPs are actually less valuable at tables with fewer players.

A hand is not going to be less likely to win against less players (I assume this is if all hands were to go to showdown) At least one of those numbers must be wrong, or they are reversed.

Drat, none the wiser then!

Attached Images

44at9or6seater.JPG (78.7 KB, 27 views)

Would it not stand to reason that a made pair has less of a chance of being out-drawn on when there are fewer players in the hand to begin with? Therefore it (small pp) has greater value?

A made small pp against 8 other hand combos would be more likely to be beaten on the flop (by catching a higher pair) than the same small pp against 3-5 players. At least that's what I would figure. So, short answer: yes?

My numbers were, of course, reversed and should read.

Very sorry. I will now write out 100 times "Do not post at CC while multi-tabling".

Hmm... let me think.... is 33 of more value when there's 4 players.. or 10players. I can't decide.. cuz I'm not sure if 'it depends'???

Short handed, when effective stack vs blinds is too low to set mine/your number of BB is too high to shove, pocket pairs only have more value if you're willing to go to show down with it.

Against certain ranges, you're dominated against higher pairs and only a slight edge over over cards. On most flops, we're either forced to c-bet into a scary board or forced to check/fold our hands and try to get to showdown cheap. We might flop the set 1:9 times, but if the odds/ implied odds aren't there, then it isn't profitable to play the PP for set value.

Don't get me wrong. A pair is a powerhouse short hand and vs less people, it'll win more often. But this is usually only if a) we're picking up the pot pre-flop or b) we get to showdown with the hand...and also, it'll depend on factors like position, stacks, opponents, weather, the stock market, etc...

...Random thought. I could be completely off.

I would fold, but when you are got a tight image and the others respect your raises you can push it. So push or fold.