4 times tonight this happened. Twice to straights and twice to flushes. This was the smallest of the 4, I am tired of running so bad.

Full Tilt, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BTN: $34.37 (137.5 bb)
SB: $5.25 (21 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $10.79 (43.2 bb)
MP1: $15.62 (62.5 bb)
MP2: $21.58 (86.3 bb)
Hero (MP3): $25 (100 bb)
CO: $31.82 (127.3 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP3 with A A
UTG+2 calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, 4 folds, UTG+2 calls $1.25, MP1 calls $1.25

Flop: ($4.85) 8 2 5 (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $3.25, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $3.25

Turn: ($11.35) 7 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $20.25 and is all-in, MP1 calls $10.87 and is all-in

River: ($33.09) 6 (2 players, 2 are all-in)

$33.09 pot ($1.65 rake)

Hero showed A A (a pair of Aces) and lost (-$15.62 net)
MP1 showed 8 9 (a straight, Five to Nine) and won $31.44 ($15.82 net)

I am tired of running so bad.

Tell me about it, 3 out of my 5 last full houses have been beaten on the river. Twice by higher full houses and once by quads...

It continues, here are a couple from tonight:

Stacks:
BB with $21.08
UTG with $27.99
UTG+1 with $19.25
MP1 with $28.85
MP2 with $9.50
CO with $45.54
BTN with $8.41
SB with $28.77




Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Full Tilt Poker
Dealt to SB:A♥ Q♣
Sklansky group 3
Preflop:
5 players fold.
BTN raises to $0.85
Hero raises to $3.25
1 players fold.
BTN calls [$2.40]
Total folds this street: 6
Potsize: $6.75
Flop:
10♦ A♣ 4♣
Hero checks
BTN bets [$5.16, and is all in]
Hero calls [$5.16] BTN shows :
K♥ 4♥ Hero shows :
A♥ Q♣
Potsize: $17.07
Turn:
9♣
Potsize: $17.07
River:
K♠
BTN shows two pair, Kings and Fours
Hero shows a pair of Aces BTN wins the pot ($16.22) with two pair, Kings and Fours

Tilt shove FTW !

Stacks:
BTN with $34.46
SB with $19.51
BB with $51.00
UTG with $15.95
UTG+1 with $25.00
MP1 with $25.41
MP2 with $16.81
MP3 with $5.00
CO with $26.59




Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Full Tilt Poker
Dealt to BTN:K♥ A♣
Sklansky group 2
Preflop:
UTG+1 checks
2 players fold.
MP2 calls [$0.25]
2 players fold.
Hero raises to $1.50
2 players fold.
UTG+1 calls [$1.25]
1 players folded.
Total folds this street: 7
Potsize: $3.35
Flop:
A♠ 2♣ 9♥
UTG+1 bets [$3.60]
1 players fold.
Hero raises to $32.96, and is all in
UTG+1 calls [$19.90] [ all-in ] Hero shows :
K♥ A♣
UTG+1 shows :
A♦ 10♣ Uncalled bet of $9.46 returned to Hero
Potsize: $59.81
Turn:
A♥
Potsize: $59.81
River:
10♥
Hero shows three of a kind, Aces
UTG+1 shows a full house, Aces full of Tens
UTG+1 wins the pot ($48.07) with a full house, Aces full of Tens

10 buy in days are teh suck
that is all

people complain far more than me imo, they should learn to be moar zen like

complaining is good
better than bottling it up and have it explode at the tarbles

Sho Sai Myo Kichijo Dharani

Weeee....CC tourny on pokerstars gave a nice boost to the old bankroll.

Gonna try my hand at some .50/$1 limit tonight.

What's the difference between 10NL and 25NL? My Br is almost ready. Any tips when moving up on these stakes.

Originally Posted by Lemlywinks

Yea you can just bumhunt 25NL for a while to get used to it. Biggest difference for me was you get played back at with pfr's more and the players are just a little bit better. Other than that it just takes a few times of losing a stack to get adjusted to losing $25 instead of $10

Do not think of it in $$ terms. Think of it in BB terms. 100 bb's at $10NL is the same as 100 bb's at $25NL, same as 100 bb's at $100NL.

Take the money out of the equation so you can still play correctly without worrying about the extra money involved when moving up. Obv play with solid BR rules, but then again, the $$ aspect is taken out by seeing how many BI's your BR is.

Think of your withdrawals in $$ amounts only, until then your BR is BI's, BB's, and a weapon to use to gain more BI's/BB's.

Originally Posted by alvinpe

What's the difference between 10NL and 25NL? My Br is almost ready. Any tips when moving up on these stakes.

FR or 6-max

I can only comment on 6-max but its really not that much different. Less spastic fish, but still plenty of them. The "regs" if you can call it that, are for the most part average. You will get played back with 3bets more but that is the main difference

Regs at 25NL are laughable you should look forward to 25NL I made double the bb/100 at that limit in comparison to 10NL...if your beating 10NL now go go 25NL

That sounds great Case--Can't wait till 25NL =)

Soooo, who wants to talk about donk betting? It's profitable when I do it with some sort of hand, but should I try check/raising instead? Which is more profitable with what sort of hands?

I also don't find calling donk bets, unless they are the min-bet type, profitable. You can try raising the min bets to see if you're busted. I haven't run into much reading material regarding the whole donk bet issue.

Other opinions?

Originally Posted by RogueRivered

Soooo, who wants to talk about donk betting? It's profitable when I do it with some sort of hand, but should I try check/raising instead? Which is more profitable with what sort of hands?

I also don't find calling donk bets, unless they are the min-bet type, profitable. You can try raising the min bets to see if you're busted. I haven't run into much reading material regarding the whole donk bet issue.

Other opinions?

Largely villain dependant, maybe some situations with stats for each would make it easier to talk about?

donk betting like sets vs villians who raise donk bets is probs profitable but im not sure if check/raising is a better option.

obvs all villian dependant

As long as you have a strategy around donk betting, it's prob a profitable opportunity. What are we trying to accomplish w a donk bet, under what circumstances? If you donk into pfr and he folds, you've lost his cbet assuming he cbets frequently. Like Jurn said, if you flop a monster and villain frequently raises donk bets, halleleujah. What hands/flops are we donking w, and what villain types?

To me, ch/r looks stronger than a donk, so you get the cbet but you are going to shut pfr out a lot of the time. Mixing donk bets and ch/r is a good idea.

When we're defending against a donk bet, do we have notes indicating what he'll donk? Does villain donk draws as well as sets? Does villain donk to see if he can take the pot down w middle pair/air (I see deepstack villains donk minbetting this alot at 50nl 6max, but I don't see many 100nl players donk minbetting)? How drawy is the board and how well did the flop hit us if at all?

Frankly, I don't think my strategy for donk betting is very good. And the times that I've actually c/r'd the pre-flop aggressor are very few. Basically, I think my usual goal is to end the hand, which may not be best, missing out on the c-bet.

I suppose we need to look at 3-bet pot donk bets and regular donk bets and then the bet sizing of each. Just getting HEM to spit out donk bet numbers is a bit of a challenge, unless I'm missing something obvious.

I had to Filter for Did Cold Call = True, Flop Unopened = True, Last to Act on Flop = False, Flop Bet = True for the regular pots, and then modify that a bit for 3-bet pots. Does that seem right to you guys, or is there a better way?

I haven't looked into defense yet, but I see a lot of min-betting at my low stakes, which makes me want to raise in position.

Basically from the way I've had it explained is in a multi way pot if you flop say a set, or some sort of monster it is much more profitable to donk bet then ch/raise. In a heads up pot, I tend to donk bet a larger percent of the time then ch/r simply for the fact that we don;t want the villain to see a scare card and lose value in the hand later on. For example, if we donk bet 5 times, lose the c-bet we would of got 4 of them but stacked them the 5th by overcommiting them with tptk or something of the sort its much more profitable then ch/r 5 times and taking down 5 c-bets, especially since checking enables them to catch a card that may in fact make us lose a stack. I'm not saying im 100% right but I do remember some videos off stox that discussed this quite frequently. Tell me if I'm way off though plz bc I might need to fix my game

You should never be donk betting based on the hand you have.

I do not like donk betting, it's the worst way to show aggression OOP. I would rather attempt the c/r and lead turn/river.

Originally Posted by Caseace48

Basically from the way I've had it explained is in a multi way pot if you flop say a set, or some sort of monster it is much more profitable to donk bet then ch/raise. In a heads up pot, I tend to donk bet a larger percent of the time then ch/r simply for the fact that we don;t want the villain to see a scare card and lose value in the hand later on. For example, if we donk bet 5 times, lose the c-bet we would of got 4 of them but stacked them the 5th by overcommiting them with tptk or something of the sort its much more profitable then ch/r 5 times and taking down 5 c-bets, especially since checking enables them to catch a card that may in fact make us lose a stack. I'm not saying im 100% right but I do remember some videos off stox that discussed this quite frequently. Tell me if I'm way off though plz bc I might need to fix my game

If you are playing a hand in a multi-way pot then I definitely prefer donk betting to c/r.

But I don't see how donk betting heads up gives us any more value. C/R gives us value from c-bets that we lose by donk betting. We also gain more information if we C/R instead of Donk Bet.

Also, if your known to pretty much only C/R or C/F then your going to induce villains to check behind more often. I believe this allows us to extract more value out of marginal hands that we usually muck on the flop.

Originally Posted by Falian

But I don't see how donk betting heads up gives us any more value. C/R gives us value from c-bets that we lose by donk betting. We also gain more information if we C/R instead of Donk Bet.

Also, if your known to pretty much only C/R or C/F then your going to induce villains to check behind more often. I believe this allows us to extract more value out of marginal hands that we usually muck on the flop.

The latter statement, though, shows one reason why mixing things up w donk bets can be useful. We don't want Villain to check behind when we hit a monster. Also, ch/r's tend to scare pfr's, as they show great strength - we'll fold out alot of hands that we'd like to have call.

If we're always ch/r or ch/f, when are we ch/r? Do we ever ch/c? Under what circumstances are we ch/r a strong draw? A set? An overpair?

should I have bluffed on river?, as me and him had tussled a few times prior to this, and I really didn't think Id win the showdown!

--------------------
HAND #1
--------------------
Full Tilt, $0.02/$0.05 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
BB: $3.01 (60.2 bb)
UTG+2: $2.99 (59.8 bb)
MP1: $1.25 (25 bb)
MP2: $1.07 (21.4 bb)
MP3: $2.24 (44.8 bb)
CO: $0.84 (16.8 bb)
BTN: $5.39 (107.8 bb)
Hero (SB): $6.25 (125 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with 8♣ 9♣
6 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, BB calls $0.10
Flop: ($0.30) 6♥ A♣ 6♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, BB raises to $0.40, Hero calls $0.20
Turn: ($1.10) 7♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30
River: ($1.70) 2♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks
Results: $1.70 pot ($0.11 rake)
BB showed 4♠ 8♠ (a pair of Sixes) and lost (-$0.85 net)
Hero showed 8♣ 9♣ (a pair of Sixes) and won $1.59 ($0.74 net)

no need to bluff at 5nl, ABC poker ftw!

Originally Posted by KerouacsDog

should I have bluffed on river?, as me and him had tussled a few times prior to this, and I really didn't think Id win the showdown!

--------------------
HAND #1
--------------------
Full Tilt, $0.02/$0.05 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
BB: $3.01 (60.2 bb)
UTG+2: $2.99 (59.8 bb)
MP1: $1.25 (25 bb)
MP2: $1.07 (21.4 bb)
MP3: $2.24 (44.8 bb)
CO: $0.84 (16.8 bb)
BTN: $5.39 (107.8 bb)
Hero (SB): $6.25 (125 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with 8♣ 9♣
6 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, BB calls $0.10
Flop: ($0.30) 6♥ A♣ 6♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, BB raises to $0.40, Hero calls $0.20
Turn: ($1.10) 7♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30
River: ($1.70) 2♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks
Results: $1.70 pot ($0.11 rake)
BB showed 4♠ 8♠ (a pair of Sixes) and lost (-$0.85 net)
Hero showed 8♣ 9♣ (a pair of Sixes) and won $1.59 ($0.74 net)

Not sure what you're effectively repping by bluffing the river - his actions rep an Ax hand or a medium pair, or a 6 - bluffing the river can only rep 22, maybe 77 (if Ax checked the turn, it's probably still checking the river), but if I'm holding any A, any 6, or even 8-JJ I'll probably call you.

I'm not crazy about calling his flop 3bet oop - I'd either 4bet or fold...

Originally Posted by Jurn8

no need to bluff at 5nl, ABC poker ftw!

Im trying to relearn ABC poker, after loosening up in mtts!

Originally Posted by slycbnew

Not sure what you're effectively repping by bluffing the river - his actions rep an Ax hand or a medium pair, or a 6 - bluffing the river can only rep 22, maybe 77 (if Ax checked the turn, it's probably still checking the river), but if I'm holding any A, any 6, or even 8-JJ I'll probably call you.

I'm not crazy about calling his flop 3bet oop - I'd either 4bet or fold...

it wasnt much more to call his flop 3bet, and maybe I would have caught the flush? We were playing random crap hands with each other!

Originally Posted by KerouacsDog

Im trying to relearn ABC poker, after loosening up in mtts!


it wasnt much more to call his flop 3bet, and maybe I would have caught the flush? We were playing random crap hands with each other!

Just to nitpick, this wasn't a 3bet on you, just a raise. I don't hate the call of his min-raise, although it usually means you are behind at this point.

No need to bluff rivers at 5NL.

Originally Posted by Falian

If you are playing a hand in a multi-way pot then I definitely prefer donk betting to c/r.

But I don't see how donk betting heads up gives us any more value. C/R gives us value from c-bets that we lose by donk betting. We also gain more information if we C/R instead of Donk Bet.

Also, if your known to pretty much only C/R or C/F then your going to induce villains to check behind more often. I believe this allows us to extract more value out of marginal hands that we usually muck on the flop.

You gain no information by C/R because if they don't c-bet then you have no clue where there at. They could of filled there flush on the turn and you had no idea, or could now be scared of the flush that they checked behind on and you lose value there. The bottom line is its all villain and situation dependant. There is no concrete answer all the time, my style of play leans towards donk betting more and I see increased profits because of it. Others styles may not favor the same strategy. Neither choice provides more value then the other. I would argue pretty strongly that checking monsters and allowing an opponent to check behind gives us LESS information then if we donk bet.