Raising when BB with K,J

#1 3rd April 2010, 11:42 PM

Some thoughts and advice please.

Live game Blinds 200/400. Mid tournement.

I was BB K,J and one limper and SB limped, I thought I would try and steal the pot. $4000 all in. This put the original caller all in, SB folded

I didn't know how the limper played , he was new to the table.

Limper turned over A,K and hit the K.

Was this a silly play?

#2 4th April 2010, 2:08 AM

yes. As you said you did not know how the limper played and u pushed with the rookie hand.

#3 4th April 2010, 2:12 AM

Terrible play IMO.

Why not just make a standard raise?

#4 4th April 2010, 2:37 AM

When you write 4000$, do you mean 4000 tournament chips?
I guess you do.
Well it all depends on so many things, but as a rule you should take an opportunity like this one, before you are chip dead.
Just unlucky this time.

#5 4th April 2010, 7:37 PM

I see this as a fine play. You had 10 bb left and everyone in the pot showed weakness. Taking the blinds there would be great plus your hand had decent showdown potential. He limped with a great hand either cause hes passive or cause hes tricky. Still I think it was a good move to shove there.

#6 5th April 2010, 9:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlantafalcons0

Terrible play IMO.

Why not just make a standard raise?

Umm.. how the phook does he make a 'standard raise' while sitting on 10bb's? Are you suggesting he raise/fold when villain 3bets him? How can he.. he'd be priced in to call with just about any two cards.

Raising 'standard' would be the worst thing you could do in this spot.

Shoving is good - you're picking up 20%+ of your stack here if they fold.
Nothing wrong with checking here either and seeing a flop (although it would've been same result as I'm pretty sure you're not getting away from TPGK w 10bb's).

#7 5th April 2010, 11:32 AM

I think the lesson is that you have to steal some blinds when the opportunity arises and this was one.

You can't just sit back and wait, some aggression and risk is good.

Like you said orifice all in or nothing(check)

#8 5th April 2010, 9:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

Umm.. how the phook does he make a 'standard raise' while sitting on 10bb's? Are you suggesting he raise/fold when villain 3bets him? How can he.. he'd be priced in to call with just about any two cards.

Raising 'standard' would be the worst thing you could do in this spot.

Shoving is good - you're picking up 20%+ of your stack here if they fold.
Nothing wrong with checking here either and seeing a flop (although it would've been same result as I'm pretty sure you're not getting away from TPGK w 10bb's).

+1, I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt first few responses were bad.

Assuming antes, 9 handed, with blinds:

M = 4000/200 + 400 + (50x9)

M = 4000/1050 = 3.81

The only move with an M less than 5 is all in or fold, Folding KJ in the big blind with two limpers is not good play in a tournament with only 10bbs left. I'm shoving this all day.

#9 5th April 2010, 10:24 PM

Why would you go all in with KJo to steal the blinds especially with a new player at the table and not knowing how he plays? Bad play is right. Should of just made the standard raise of 3x the BB and see what he does. Make the C- bet see where he stands. If he calls or 3 bets you that would give you an idea of how to proceed. Even then I'm sure you would of shipped it since the K hit on the flop.

#10 6th April 2010, 4:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rollnutilt

Why would you go all in with KJo to steal the blinds especially with a new player at the table and not knowing how he plays? Bad play is right. Should of just made the standard raise of 3x the BB and see what he does. Make the C- bet see where he stands. If he calls or 3 bets you that would give you an idea of how to proceed. Even then I'm sure you would of shipped it since the K hit on the flop.

lmfao that whole process would have cost him more than half his stack.

Starting 4000, assuming blinds and antes (450) payed.

Make 3x raise, down to 3200. Assume AK calls and other folds.

Flop, if he hits a K, hes behind. Pot: 3450, a standard cbet will be about 2/3, about 2200 or so I would guess.

This would leave him with only 1000 chips, the other guy would shove, he's pot dedicated to call.

#11 6th April 2010, 5:56 AM

At this point in an MTT this is more than a mere blind steal. This is survival. Preflop there is more than 25% of the hero's stack out there and no one showed any strength. SHOVE EVERY TIME.

#12 6th April 2010, 6:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rollnutilt

Why would you go all in with KJo to steal the blinds especially with a new player at the table and not knowing how he plays? Bad play is right. Should of just made the standard raise of 3x the BB and see what he does. Make the C- bet see where he stands. If he calls or 3 bets you that would give you an idea of how to proceed. Even then I'm sure you would of shipped it since the K hit on the flop.

He's in the blinds... he's the BB. Maybe read over the post again.

#13 6th April 2010, 9:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salim271

lmfao that whole process would have cost him more than half his stack.

Starting 4000, assuming blinds and antes (450) payed.

Make 3x raise, down to 3200. Assume AK calls and other folds.

Flop, if he hits a K, hes behind. Pot: 3450, a standard cbet will be about 2/3, about 2200 or so I would guess.

This would leave him with only 1000 chips, the other guy would shove, he's pot dedicated to call.

Sorry misread the post. But I still think it was a bad play in trying to steal the blinds and antes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

He's in the blinds... he's the BB. Maybe read over the post again.

Thanks read it again I misread it the first time.

#14 8th April 2010, 4:05 AM

I prefer the check over 90% here. Unless hero had the read that villains limp weak AND fold to aggressive preflop raises, I don't like pushing with kj with 10 blinds. IMO it stinks of desperation and I would rather, with that size stack, push with 76 suited, or wait until I'm the first to voluntarily put any chips into the pot. Opponents calling range against such a short stack is going to be quite large.

#15 9th April 2010, 10:05 PM

I would check, K,J is called the rookie hand for a reason, it not good enough to raise with but it to strong to fold with too. when you in the big blinds I would just check with this

#16 10th April 2010, 3:46 AM

So KJ is not a shove hand with 10bb? What would you shove with with 10bb?

#17 10th April 2010, 3:52 AM

I like the villians play as well. Limp with a big hand expecting/inducing a shove from the SS

#18 10th April 2010, 5:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreams of Tragedy

I would check, K,J is called the rookie hand for a reason, it not good enough to raise with but it to strong to fold with too. when you in the big blinds I would just check with this

I just disagree with the check in the big blind option... we are obviously beat here yes, but a lot of the times we wont be. With the blinds so high its best to shove and get limpers out of the pot and take their bets preflop, if you hit the flop you're going to be shoving anyways, and you're only going to be called down with better most of the time.

#19 10th April 2010, 6:21 AM

I think you did the right thing, I hate playing K J and only play it on the button or in the blinds. Unfortunately he flipped over big slick and spiked a K on the flop and you couldn't get a J. Well better luck next time

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