A radical idea for NL beginners

#36 09-08-2008, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fin2head

Good sound advice, hand charts should be use as guideline as to position and hand strength not used as a gospel. Alot of hands are made after the flop when according to the chart you were suppose to fold.

It usually costs money to see a flop. Sometimes quite a bit

#37 09-08-2008, 2:17 AM

The altruist in me is slightly dismayed by rookies who want to come out of the starting gate playing like Doyle Brunson without learning poker fundamentals. The poker player in me, however, is salivating.

#38 09-08-2008, 9:27 AM

i think you should start learning poker by playing very abc. that means using a chart if it helps you, learning about position, about when to raise/call/fold, concepts like odds, the strength of hands relative to board texture/opponent etc.

So i don't think that there is anything wrong with using charts as guidelines and ignoring the "it depends" aspect until you get better. Once you get better, it is incredibly easy to toss the guidelines, but i'm pretty sure more ppl have lost money trying to "learn from experience or playing by feel" than by following a chart regarding hand requirements.

When you learn to play anything, say something like golf, you learn the very basics. You learn how to grip the club. Nobody is going to tell you that you can use x grip to fade and y grip to draw and you can change your grip when you putt. Ofc not, because that is ridiculous. You learn the generic basic way, then as you learn you add things to your arsenal and possibly remove the original things you learnt. Same with poker...learn the basics then try to introduce more complicated aspects to your play.

#39 09-08-2008, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cAPSLOCK

It's a good point katharine...

Yes.. but the thing is you are gonna get to play those hands every now and then. And on a full moon when the planets line up and the dog is fed you are gonna have just that superflop happen.

Here are two common chances:

1. When you are in the blinds and the table limps to you... boom instant 53o love.

2. When you are button in front of two super tight players in the blinds. You raise your 53o, and BB calls you with AK. Get your flop and you're off to the races.

Point is we should spend as little time as possible playing crappy hands. (Deep, I know)

Learn ABC poker FIRST, then deviate.

Or... Heck.. see every flop for all I care... just do it at MY table.

Interesting topic.

cAPS

Just to be clear, I am not regularly limpimg with hands like 5-3 off hoping to see the full moon flop. They are usually when I have position and can afford to see a flop on a deviation type play, or in my blind.

My range is normally not that wide. In general, esp. in the beginning of a tournament, general starting hand guides apply and are useful in building your stack.

#40 10-08-2008, 5:14 PM

i love all these poker sites where every one talks like a pro...or has a system...do this dont do this...the problem is it makes every one a better player... and so it means every winning player will be drawn closer to the line of break even...who pays for these poker sites anyway????

the only certain ev play is freerolls and if you factor in what your time is worth...even those are negative.....

save your money...save your time...seek your fortune on earth

#41 10-08-2008, 6:04 PM

l don't agree with you,brann...beginners need some help,for the way they play,and as well to help their moral state..cause if they lose few times,they can very easily quit...

#42 10-08-2008, 6:44 PM

Oh my, I guess all these items such as charts, calculator...etc etc... are just a little to much for me. If I cannot sit down and play without having all that I do not need to be playing. I enjoy learning by paying attention, learning from my own mistakes and trying to play a decent game. Im sure it could be interesting too learn all that, but I am confused as it is already. Gl at the tables everyone!

#43 10-08-2008, 7:23 PM

There's a reason why people create hand charts, because those hands tend to be profitable in certain positions. Obviously if you're just playing hands based on starting charts your play is going to be easy to read and readily exploitable. However for low stakes your opponents are likely to be unable to exploit them because they don't know how. Therefore standard charts are good for situations where your opponents are likely to call you with inferior hands and they help keep decisions to a minimum, which is beneficial to new players as they often lack the decision making skills of experienced players. While it can be more profitable to play an exploitative game where you can steal a lot of hands from overly tight players or break them when they overvalue their superior starting hand postflop, it's better to learn what hands are generally intrinsically profitable in most situations, and only then alter your play to exploit your opponents after you have a firm grasp of the fundamentals.

#44 10-08-2008, 8:02 PM

Its always best to start in low level tournaments, but remember that with the $1 buy ins there are players that go all in with anything because of cost. The strategy is that if you double your stack early you can then wait for the premium hands on a 10 player tourney. So allot of luck is required on the low level buy ins. Expect to see quality hands get destroyed by the killer variance. Once you build up your bank and can move to more expensive buy ins, the quality of the game will increase and then you can truly hone your skills.

#45 16-08-2008, 1:55 AM

In any competition, it seems to me that the first step to beating an opponent is to understand them. I have never read a poker book, but is it safe to say that regardless of you using the knowledge yourself- It's necessary to understand the charts that other people are using as a guideline? Seems like a no- brainer. I'm just too hyper to take my own advice.

#46 16-08-2008, 2:47 AM

It depends.....

seriously it does, I mean if I know my players and their ranges then I have a chart for each position in my head...like Zach is suggesting, but on the other hand I can also go into a mtt knowing no ones stats, but just play the person and position, and have no set chart in my head.....

#47 16-08-2008, 2:20 PM

I think that the only sound way for NL playing is,after reading some books or articles about poker that will help you avoid making cliche mistakes, OBSERVE the others.Why they played when they played e.t.c.Try to figure out their cards or at least if they tend to bluff.

And this by folding several initial hands and watching the others play

#48 20-08-2008, 7:38 PM

Your 100% right. I have a mousemat that has odds and suggested actions on it. Problem is playing by the book gets you nowhere at all! Varying play is the best thing to do. It think that if begginers look at these hand charts they will lose because there are 2 many donkeys on the table lol or two many aggressive people!

RK

#49 21-08-2008, 2:32 AM

If you know you can play poker. If you're doing okay, winning some, maybe losing some, there's a good chance you know how to play. And playing should definitely be judged by you. I play a lot of tournaments with friends on weekends and and when one of them gets out he always seems to be telling me what to do. That just stresses things, makes me play like crap, and keeps me from playing poker the way I play poker. I say play poker the way you want to. Take advice here and there but you shouldn't be playing to a set of percentages and charts.

#50 21-08-2008, 7:09 PM

I figured out a way to avoid playing the first hand of the tourney... Go outside and have a smoke about 2 minutes before the scheduled start time. That way, when I come back in Im 3-4 minutes into the tourney, got my nic-fix, and missed out on the obligatory first hand all-in wankers (this is what I do on freerolls, anyways.)

#51 21-08-2008, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brann6

Throw away your starting hands charts.

Seriously. Toss 'em.

Stop worrying about AJ or KQ and where to play them. Stop listening to all the talk about "domination" and having a better hand to call with than you'd raise with.

I am dead serious.

Here's why. Almost every single poker author puts a chart in their book or, like in the Harrington series, offers so many hand examples you can create charts. However, and this is the most overlooked point, every single author, without exception, says "it depends." It depends on the way the table's playing, whether you have tons of calling stations or maniacs. It just all depends on....whatever.

That's because NL is more about the players and position than it is about the cards. You'd be better off telling yourself to play "x" range of hands against player A and "y" range of hands against player B than creating charts to play mindlessly against everyone.

In "Hold 'Em for Advanced Players" (designed mostly for limit play) Sklansky even says his starting hand charts will do no more than help you break even. That's a lot of damned work just to break even. Then, to be a better, more dangerous player, you need to break away from the charts as "your game evolves."

Horsehockey!

Why tie yourself to a "system" which you then have to unlearn in order to actually make money?

I'm speaking as one of the "chart lovers" out there. And I've been working damned hard to unlearn things.

There is no system, no rote way of playing, that will make you a winner.

I haven't made a deposit in over 2 years but I do have a few withdrawals. I'm a very, very small winner. Just enough to say I'm not a loser and am better than break-even. But I didn't turn the corner until I started fighting back against the indoctrination of the the "charts".

I'm tellin' ya, toss the charts. You'll never really learn what works for you until you do.

Brann

You said it. I do not even see why anyone would use them to start with

.
they list AK as the best hand and thats not true, i fold AK in the start of a MTT, they have there power the deeper you get in to a MTT.....
One guy told me pairs win in MTTs and it is true, you see less for flush's and str8s the deeper you get....

First time i have seen it posted on a site TYVM....

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