A radical idea for NL beginners

Throw away your starting hands charts.

Seriously. Toss 'em.

Stop worrying about AJ or KQ and where to play them. Stop listening to all the talk about "domination" and having a better hand to call with than you'd raise with.

I am dead serious.

Here's why. Almost every single poker author puts a chart in their book or, like in the Harrington series, offers so many hand examples you can create charts. However, and this is the most overlooked point, every single author, without exception, says "it depends." It depends on the way the table's playing, whether you have tons of calling stations or maniacs. It just all depends on....whatever.

That's because NL is more about the players and position than it is about the cards. You'd be better off telling yourself to play "x" range of hands against player A and "y" range of hands against player B than creating charts to play mindlessly against everyone.

In "Hold 'Em for Advanced Players" (designed mostly for limit play) Sklansky even says his starting hand charts will do no more than help you break even. That's a lot of damned work just to break even. Then, to be a better, more dangerous player, you need to break away from the charts as "your game evolves."

Horsehockey!

Why tie yourself to a "system" which you then have to unlearn in order to actually make money?

I'm speaking as one of the "chart lovers" out there. And I've been working damned hard to unlearn things.

There is no system, no rote way of playing, that will make you a winner.

I haven't made a deposit in over 2 years but I do have a few withdrawals. I'm a very, very small winner. Just enough to say I'm not a loser and am better than break-even. But I didn't turn the corner until I started fighting back against the indoctrination of the the "charts".

I'm tellin' ya, toss the charts. You'll never really learn what works for you until you do.

Brann

read with interest............when can i expect to see your book on the shelves? keep up the good work.

lol peachy.

Wait until I win a major tournament lol.

Seriously though, it was either Dan Harrington, who DID have charts in HOH, or Phil Gordon who said they didn't like starting hand charts but were including them in their book because "it was expected of them."

I've learned more from Gus Hansen's book and the latest from Daniel Negraneau than any of the ones with charts.

Brann

You're right. It is a radical idea.

As far as I'm concerned, the easiest way for a beginner to break-even at poker is to only play quality starting hands. It's also a good foundation for poker. Start with a simple strategy, then grow and adapt as you learn more. If a beginner starts playing marginal hands right off the bat, I would expect that most of them will lose money at the beginning. And it's going to be a lot more difficult to learn, when you're leaking BR.

I'm sure your way will work, but I wouldn't recommend it for everyone.

In every book, the next sentence is always how charts are good for people who have weak post-flop play, and maybe weak pre-flop in addition. Charts are excellent tools for the beginner.

In low stakes games people play with everything pre-flop, and don't know what do with themselves post-flop. The easiest and safest way for a beginner to beat these types of players is to only play the premium hands. Low stakes players are not usually going to pick up on the fact that you are only playing premium hands, so there's no way it hurts you.

Anyone playing high stakes understands that you can't play by the book.

Great post...wait radical means BAD right???

Horrible idea for beginners.

Well all I can say is very nice, and those charts are just "general idea" of what you should be playing, and I have been working on a sng article, almost done, and I do mention that and that you should adjust and sometimes play outside the charts.

I can kinda agree with you, b/c quality starting hands are overvalued and can be hard to lay down. And there's a rush when your 5-3 off makes a 3-7 straight, and guy with A-K can't stop betting at the dead flop.

But I have to agree with Vic, I lose more throwing the book away than I do following it.

Besides every beginner's goal (atleast mine) is not to go broke.

Even is okay, broke not so much. LOL

But it is very fun to throw the book away, and play with a wide range of cards. I"m just not that good at it.

LOL

However, I will say this one of these types of players doubled me up in a tourney with nothing but bottom pair, she had (9-6). The pot was almost half her stack.

Branding her reckless, I didn't believe she had the nut straight 10 hands later. (I had Aces up)

She took all those chips back and then some and sent me to the rail.

So maybe I can evolve, later when I get better.

lol the it depends statement is supposed to be where you deviate from it, so it's still a foundation. While I didn't really learn from a chart or anything (I started sucking by playing too many hands, then started realizing limping in with KJ UTG at a FR table was a losing decision). For example though I'll raise 83o on the button if the blinds are tight, but it hinges on that. There is a starting hand chart in my head from every position, and the presence of more aggressive or more passive players to my left will alter it. A hand chart is definiely a decent way to start though.

Also, lol at the op saying that since a hand chart can only get you even, you should throw it out. That's like running a marathon, saying that if you eat and train right before the race you still won't win, and since you want to win you'll just not eat or train right and instead just wing it and hope to win. Sure just a hand chart won't get you winning millions, but it's a good boost and working on postflop play will help you first off improve the winrate but secondly allow you not only to deviate from the chart but also to get better at knowing when you can deviate.

I don't play by a chart. Still, if asked, I could tell you exactly what my default ranges are for opening in any position. I could write this down, at which point I'd have a chart.

The idea that you have to "unlearn" the charts is nonsense. To continue on Zach's sport metaphore, you don't have to unlearn how to walk before you can start running. Running and walking are two different things, but the one is based on the other. You might theoretically learn how to run without knowing how to walk, but it's an unnecessarily difficult way to go about it. Also, you'll fall over a lot and hurt yourself badly.

I think that's about as far as I can take that analogy.

I disagree, it does still massively depend on the situation. I played a 6-max table yesterday where I was raising any 2 in the cutoff & button because the two players to my right were running less than 12% VPIP, and fold to c-bet of 85%. Normally J4os is trash, but in that situation, its a +EV move.

True, you don't have to unlearn the chart. But the real deal is to learn why the chart is like it is, and to learn how & why to deviate from it.

Playing ideal poker nevers beats a game for the max, exploiting your opponents does.

You disagree with whom? Me?

Having a "default" range in no way shape or form removes the possibility of, for instance, opening any two.

Not having a default range at all to deviate from is, I'd estimate, in at least 99% of all cases a sign that the person isn't a solid player.

Looking back, I'm not really sure what I disagreed with. Maybe your sentiment that playing by chart was a good thing & that you disagree with OP? Idk.

The main point I was trying to re-iterate is that the opening poster does have a point. Sure, beginners should have an idea of what hands to play in what positions. But the real key is they need to understand why they're playing those hands, and more importantly when *not* to play them.

Most new players don't understand that the range of hands that you call a raise with, and the range of hands that you make a raise with are VERY different. Same thing with opponents. Against a loose fish limper with postion, my raising range is very different than my usual opening range.

For the longest time I knew that a hand like say A9 was good in late position, but bad in early postion. But I would then still call an UTG raise with a hand like A9 if I was in late position, and proceed to spew chips when an ace flopped. Thank god I was only playing freerolls at that point.

The biggest mistakes beginners make (once they stop being complete fish) is just playing "good cards" and not thinking about their hand's strength in relation to what happening around them.

So what you're saying is that you read these charts wrong to begin with because they're generally OPENING hand charts, which is a world away from calling an UTG raise hand chart. The best (read least expensive but not necessarily the most profitable) way for a beginner to learn to play is to play ABC poker. If they knew and understood all the concepts you're applying they wouldn't be beginners.

Yeah, I guess so. Beginners just don't understand that there's a huge difference between opening a pot, calling a raise, 3-betting, ect.

And playing ABC poker is different from just looking at your cards and your seat and going "Yep, I'm playing this hand."

I guess I'm just dense, a slow learner, whatever. But I've been finding it terribly difficult to break from the starting hand charts. And, from other forums I frequent, I see many, many other posters showing hand histories, talking about hands, etc, that clearly show they were wedded to the charts.

I fully understand one NEEDS to know that KT UTG is pretty weak. But I also believe that most people, like me, can fall into the trap of believing the charts are the be all, end all of NLHE. It's the same mindset that can cause one to play weak tight, fit or fold poker. It's also the mindset that gets players to go broke with TPTK.

Maybe my "radical" idea is more along the lines of become familiar with the charts, but don't fall in love with them. While you're learning what kinds of equity various hands have from what position, learn how to play position, play the player, trust your reads (and notes) even online.

I just think starting hand charts are way over-valued by most players.

Brann

It's a good point katharine...

Yes.. but the thing is you are gonna get to play those hands every now and then. And on a full moon when the planets line up and the dog is fed you are gonna have just that superflop happen.

Here are two common chances:

1. When you are in the blinds and the table limps to you... boom instant 53o love.

2. When you are button in front of two super tight players in the blinds. You raise your 53o, and BB calls you with AK. Get your flop and you're off to the races.

Point is we should spend as little time as possible playing crappy hands. (Deep, I know)

Learn ABC poker FIRST, then deviate.

Or... Heck.. see every flop for all I care... just do it at MY table.

Interesting topic.

cAPS

The charts are there as GUIDELINES, not more. If you follow them exactly, you're not going to be a winning player, a pro. Think about how many people have read these books. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE. Has anyone here watched High Stakes Poker? These pros play hands like Q6, 104...they play based on how the table is playing, and they create images so that when they get huge hands, they get calls. Now, if you're a beginning player, read the books, know the game...but don't get caught in 'I have AJ I can't fold.' You can fold, depending on your image, raises in front of you, and how many are left to act. Poker pros know the secret: it's not about your cards, its about the other guys' cards

A very interesting post with believeable information from all who responded. Now I'm even more confused than ever! I guess practicing will help me decide the best way for me to play.

nice post evrybody should just play the way he likes to play evry starting hand can beat a other so no matter what i depends on luck and skill to get those cashflows rolling

Actually, I think you can. When I first started playing, I read Phil Helmuth's book, and took his supertight strategy to the micro tables. I played limit, only played the top 10 hands, and played them hard and fast. I was immediately profitable. Sure, I wasn't earning much, and I was playing at very low stakes, but I was still making a consistent profit. And this was simply by using an ABC strategy and a hand chart.

No, I wasn't going to make it to the World Series playing only the top ten hands, but I was still technically a winning player.

Of course, as soon as I tried to deviate from the strategy to make my game better, I started posting big losses. Had I not had a base game to fall back to, I might have played way worse and spent a lot more $$$ learning how to play poker.

Alot of times...it seems like the person with the hand that gets paid off the most of the time is 24 off suit and etc...

I know many people have already made this point and those that completely disregard it still will but knowing and understanding "the chart" is very important. Knowing what hands to open in early middle and late position is good to know, understanding why is vital.

Knowing a "chart" or more commonly a range of hands in each postion is key to understanding poker. This is only a base to deviate from however, but this being in the beginners section, that is something that will have to be learned. Starting out by knowing what kind of hands you should be playing in positions, or stage of tournys if applicable, is a great base.

Also, following the chart is probably more applicable in tourny play, which is where I beleive you see such charts mostly. I havent read HOH for awhile but I am pretty certain his cash books dont contain any charts, and if they do he definetely makes a very clear statement that it is a base to work off.

Nope.

It depends on skill, patience and perseverance.

The luck is moot. We all get the same luck.

First of all. I have never actually used a chart. Don't know if that's good or bad to tell the truth.

But I don't see how the above could possibly be true, and I will make an argument against it now.

I am primarily a ring game player. I play between LAG and TAG

Starting hand selection is vitally important. And position should affect it. Depending on the game, I might limp with KJo on the button but fold it in most other positions.

In ring games the blinds don't go up (until you WANT them to). so you are under no pressure to play loosely. Ever. Whereas in a tourney you have to worry about the blinds eating up your stack, and at some point hand selection gets a little moot.

Looked at this way a "chart" would make even more sense in a ring game.

If I am losing about as fast as possible then I am playing too many hands and ending up chasing after what will be the 2nd best in the end anyway. I will minimize this by making sure my A has a good kicker before I even start.

cAPS

Starting charts were never intended to be used for more than familiarizing yourself with the game without completely going broke. It does hold a very important basis however, by emphasizing the importance of position through hand selection. Which of course if you never used a hand chart would not really have a great example of how to apply it, or perhaps even understand it.

Your point does have some merit, but not quite as important imho as knowing the "basic starting hands".

Example: Your normal opening range from the CO in a 6-max game is 22-AA,78s+,KJ+,AT+. But the game is very tight and full of nits, so your looking more at raising 78+ more and not AT and KJ. Just adjusting your "starting hand chart" to the game. Everyone has one, even if you don't write it down.

I couldn't agree with you more - sitting with those charts is only more confusing - experience is the best way to learn - Bravo

One of the best reads of advice for beginners that I've seen is posted at Ultimatebet.

It basically said if you have a hand that contains a card with a 7 or lower, muck it. The point was to get the beginner to be able to easily fold hands. 77 66 55 44 33 22 muck them. A 7 K 7 etc. Bye bye.

I dont agree with that beginner strategy. Beginners should learn that small pairs are worth seeing a flop up to3-4 times bb. Otherwise all these beginner strategies might as well be only stay in a hand if you have AA. LOL

Sometimes I watch late night poker and observe teh players that have wrote all theri books on strategy and how they win so much money at poker and blah blah blah. Have any of you observed the shit they play and call with a raise and then play their hands like a donkey. Season four of poker after dark, Phil Hellmuth played like crap... he went on tilt and his magical "reads" were way way off. I think that you find a strategy that works for you, look at the chart so you know that you played your hand preflop the way you should but when the other player counteracted your play by the book, and won it's just cards... Sh it happens! I find a strategy that works for me, observe other peoples strategy and if I like what they are doing incorporate it in my play. They can write on and on and on about correct play... but they need to put My money where their mouth ( or book) is.

One of the best books I've ever read was "Poker Tournament Formula."

It's not the magnum opus of poker, but more than anything I've ever read, it stresses position, position, position. In fact, it has an excersise to play position blind and THEN, once you're familiar with that, look at your cards.

I gave it a shot in a 10-cent tourney just so there'd be something on the line for everyone, and finished deeper than I expected.

I learned then and there that position rules...much more so than cards.

That's why I say toss the charts. Learn position first.

Yeah, I know, I'll get all sorts of responses about how position is easy to understand. I say, no, it's not. If you have position and don't do anything with it you might as well play 7-card showdown. It is absolutely unnatural to bet with nothing, even with position. It's even harder to raise a flop bettor with nothing from position; yet, it works.

Position rules. (Now, if I'd could just toss my own charts and be the aggressive s.o.b.I was a few months ago.)

Brann

Very interesting point, and I have strongly agreed with you for a while, before I read this thread. Basically, charts turn players into robots, only functioning when they have these starting cards. The fact of the matter is it all depends on position and your other players, as well as your chip stack. That's where the decisions preflop should be based on.

Beginner strategies are geared to help the beggining player understand the strengths of hands as well as giving them the understanding of folding. These are starting points not instruction for life long poker.

However, if you want to send your newbies to my tables and have em call my preflop 3-4x BB bets with rag pairs, they are welcome!

intrestind read brann,...but i personally feel it is probably ver difficult especially for beginners to play such a radical game,but after six months of play i'm slowly starting to let go....