Races in Sit n Gos....

#1 14th July 2009, 10:49 PM

...........drive me crazy. The worst part is that it is so hard to go an entire sit n go without encountering at least one race. For you people crushing the sit n go's, do you avoid racing like the plague or do you just take them as they come and account them as the variance?

I'm not referring to races in the early stages, I don't shove with AK in the first 10 hands or anything. I'm referring to the bubble areas, using ICM, and still losing when I'm ahead preflop. It's driving me insane.

#2 14th July 2009, 11:05 PM

I try not to make all in calls just because I know my AK is better than whatever they are holding, but of course if you are low on chips and slowly dying there is not much else you can do but get your chips in with the best hand.

Need a much better hand to call someone elses all in than you do to push your entire chip stack in first.

#3 14th July 2009, 11:11 PM

the solution is to stop playing sngs if it bothers you that much - the nature of the game dictates that you're gonna have to flip at least a couple of times to win any sng.

#4 14th July 2009, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

the solution is to stop playing sngs if it bothers you that much - the nature of the game dictates that you're gonna have to flip at least a couple of times to win any sng.

i guess that's true, but I dont have the bankroll to play a cash game. Some people on these boards have had great success building bankrolls from low stakes sng's, which is why I am wondering how it is possible to win consistently when at least one race almost always occurs per game.

#5 14th July 2009, 11:23 PM

I love to play sitngos myself but in the early stages especially you have to watch out for races and plain idiots. But I agree with suit2please, close to the end it is easier to go allin with a good hand than to call someone elses allin with the same hand. I will shove ace king if I am shortstacked especially in late position where there can't be many callers if any. Remember the payout though. Last night I was playing with 10 players left and had pock kings. The player under the gun shoved allin. He was in second. Two people called him and were allin. I folded simply because I was in 8th and would make the money if under the gun won and would still be in the game if one of the others won. He had pock jacks and hit set on flop. Turned out to be a good fold. I know a lot of people would disagree with the fold but you have to look at your ranking and sometimes a fold can benefit you.

#6 14th July 2009, 11:35 PM

So what is the average ITM % of a winning SnG player?

#7 14th July 2009, 11:37 PM

just because you're ahead in a "race" doesn't mean you're gonna win a whole lot. Most of the time a race is 55-45 or at worst 60-40, which is in reality a COIN FLIP. Meaning you will lose almost half the time IF you get in as the fav.
I wouldn't sweat it too much though, cause if you are getting it in as the fav. the long run percentages speak for themselves.

Remember the only way you are a big fav. preflop is like AK over AQ, PP vs smaller PP or like AA vs q10. ( and is a little smaller fav. against something like KQ suited)
MOST of the time one guy is only around 2 1/2 or 3-1 fav. Not THAT BIG of a fav.

#8 15th July 2009, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

the solution is to stop playing sngs if it bothers you that much - the nature of the game dictates that you're gonna have to flip at least a couple of times to win any sng.

True, for every game i win, i lose one..

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaded848

i guess that's true, but I dont have the bankroll to play a cash game. Some people on these boards have had great success building bankrolls from low stakes sng's, which is why I am wondering how it is possible to win consistently when at least one race almost always occurs per game.

I have a 55.6% win rate.
I sit and wait for good hands...
The racer in a game is not a problem for me, i end up taking them out..

#9 15th July 2009, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaded848

...........drive me crazy. The worst part is that it is so hard to go an entire sit n go without encountering at least one race. For you people crushing the sit n go's, do you avoid racing like the plague or do you just take them as they come and account them as the variance?

I'm not referring to races in the early stages, I don't shove with AK in the first 10 hands or anything. I'm referring to the bubble areas, using ICM, and still losing when I'm ahead preflop. It's driving me insane.

More shoving, less calling imo.

Shoving has fold equity meaning you can win a small pot 100% a decent amount of the time as well as double up x% whereas if you call, you will only have the opportunity to double up y%. Granted, y is probably bigger than x, but in SnGs, stealing blinds is the name of the game (at least when blinds get high).

I haven't played normal 9man's in awhile but if the game is really tight, you should be shoving ATC in certain circumstances, and if the games are loose, then you can just let other people take each other out. If others keep trading chips, than you're just unlucky but the odds say this won't happen as frequently as you might think.

#10 15th July 2009, 1:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidkvno1

True, for every game i win, i lose one..

I have a 55.6% win rate.
I sit and wait for good hands...
The racer in a game is not a problem for me, i end up taking them out..

i'm a huge loser in SNGs. i wish there was a way to know the hands i get ko's on but it really seems i'm going out ahead all too often. i got HEM but dont really know the filters to put in to see this stat. i realy dont know what im doing wrong. if anything i would think im waiting too long for that hand and not steling or bluffing enough. any tips? hoping to have enough FTPs to buy a sit and go book by the end of the month. huge leak in my game for sure.

#11 15th July 2009, 4:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardplayer52

i'm a huge loser in SNGs. i wish there was a way to know the hands i get ko's on but it really seems i'm going out ahead all too often. i got HEM but dont really know the filters to put in to see this stat. i realy dont know what im doing wrong. if anything i would think im waiting too long for that hand and not steling or bluffing enough. any tips? hoping to have enough FTPs to buy a sit and go book by the end of the month. huge leak in my game for sure.

Post some of your hands, that you lost on.
You should be able to see what hands you are losing the most on. Once you build your stack, keep playing the same way...
If a short stack player shoves all-in and i am holding PP i tend to call.
Also try for 2 pair, my big losses come from 1 pair. Raise a good amount to push them out of the pot, when holding AK, AQ, AJ, A10, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, even 10s, Also try to remember to use your position, on the right hands, they would be JK, JQ, J10, Qk Q10, 10K, small PP, but being willing to fold, to a raise... I should also tell you that i only play about 10 to 20 hands per 100 hands, if i play more then that i start losing..
Try to keep from chasing, str8s, and flush's, if you hit a flush, make sure your holding an A, or K, or Q.
If they all limp, your in the BB limp in with them.
A rag, i tend to fold, more then i would play it.

I hope that helps you out some, GL

#12 15th July 2009, 7:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidkvno1

Post some of your hands, that you lost on.
You should be able to see what hands you are losing the most on. Once you build your stack, keep playing the same way...
If a short stack player shoves all-in and i am holding PP i tend to call.
Also try for 2 pair, my big losses come from 1 pair. Raise a good amount to push them out of the pot, when holding AK, AQ, AJ, A10, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, even 10s, Also try to remember to use your position, on the right hands, they would be JK, JQ, J10, Qk Q10, 10K, small PP, but being willing to fold, to a raise... I should also tell you that i only play about 10 to 20 hands per 100 hands, if i play more then that i start losing..
Try to keep from chasing, str8s, and flush's, if you hit a flush, make sure your holding an A, or K, or Q.
If they all limp, your in the BB limp in with them.
A rag, i tend to fold, more then i would play it.

I hope that helps you out some, GL

thanks i'll give it a whirl cant get worse!! ROI -39.5% i wish there was a way to just see the hand that ko'ed you. ill try looking through my histories. thanks again.

#13 15th July 2009, 8:45 AM

Your welcome, look for the last 10 hands.

#14 15th July 2009, 9:46 AM

I don't know if anybody would agree with this but I have noticed that playing the double up sng's(regular time) on pokerstars $5.50 buy-in, I have been getting busted out of the money almost every time when it got down to the last six players, which pays out to the top five. My point is that when the game got to the one hour mark that's when i get a big pre-flop hand like AA. I am the lowest stack at the table so I go all in and always get called with a much weaker hand. Sure enough every time i get sucked out on. The reason I question this is because I have played a lot of these sng's and they always last a few minutes past a hour, nothing longer. Why can't these premimum starting hands hold up. I watched other sng games and noticied that the short stack in 6th place lost the same way I did when the game was a few minutes past a hour. I checked the duration times of many of these sng's and they all only lasted a hour and a few minutes. Why cant these games last longer if the players are skilled? Seems like these sng's are programmed to last a certain amount of time so Pokerstars can make more money.

#15 15th July 2009, 9:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFLD_REBEL

I don't know if anybody would agree with this but I have noticed that playing the double up sng's(regular time) on pokerstars $5.50 buy-in, I have been getting busted out of the money almost every time when it got down to the last six players, which pays out to the top five. My point is that when the game got to the one hour mark that's when i get a big pre-flop hand like AA. I am the lowest stack at the table so I go all in and always get called with a much weaker hand. Sure enough every time i get sucked out on. The reason I question this is because I have played a lot of these sng's and they always last a few minutes past a hour, nothing longer. Why can't these premimum starting hands hold up. I watched other sng games and noticied that the short stack in 6th place lost the same way I did when the game was a few minutes past a hour. I checked the duration times of many of these sng's and they all only lasted a hour and a few minutes. Why cant these games last longer if the players are skilled? Seems like these sng's are programmed to last a certain amount of time so Pokerstars can make more money.

I play a lot of 1.10, seam to do great.
Also, they are not set to a time. Get off to a lager stack quick... The problem with being SS is a lager stack will call just to end a game, yes i know. i have called SS with PP, even tho they were pushing, with AK.

#16 15th July 2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFLD_REBEL

I don't know if anybody would agree with this but I have noticed that playing the double up sng's(regular time) on pokerstars $5.50 buy-in, I have been getting busted out of the money almost every time when it got down to the last six players, which pays out to the top five. My point is that when the game got to the one hour mark that's when i get a big pre-flop hand like AA. I am the lowest stack at the table so I go all in and always get called with a much weaker hand. Sure enough every time i get sucked out on. The reason I question this is because I have played a lot of these sng's and they always last a few minutes past a hour, nothing longer. Why can't these premimum starting hands hold up. I watched other sng games and noticied that the short stack in 6th place lost the same way I did when the game was a few minutes past a hour. I checked the duration times of many of these sng's and they all only lasted a hour and a few minutes. Why cant these games last longer if the players are skilled? Seems like these sng's are programmed to last a certain amount of time so Pokerstars can make more money.

The reason why they all last a similar amount of time is because they all start with the same number of people and have the same blind structure (i.e. the blinds get higher = more all ins = higher chance of people busting).

If you are suggesting that Stars is rigged, then go take your argument to a "Is online poker rigged" thread. Variance is part of the game. If you are complaining that you've lost with AA a couple times, you have seen nothing in comparison to a true downswing.

If you are interested in some basic DoN strategy, read my post here: http://www.cardschat.com/showpost1226699-post19.html

#17 15th July 2009, 7:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidkvno1

I play a lot of 1.10, seam to do great.
Also, they are not set to a time. Get off to a lager stack quick... The problem with being SS is a lager stack will call just to end a game, yes i know. i have called SS with PP, even tho they were pushing, with AK.

This is often my problem. When I reach the endgame, I am either shortstack or just one above the shortstack. I'm trying to "get to a larger stack quick," but it all depends on if the cards fall my way (i don't try to bluff people out of pots, too many people call with bottom pair).

#18 15th July 2009, 7:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncscout

I love to play sitngos myself but in the early stages especially you have to watch out for races and plain idiots. But I agree with suit2please, close to the end it is easier to go allin with a good hand than to call someone elses allin with the same hand. I will shove ace king if I am shortstacked especially in late position where there can't be many callers if any. Remember the payout though. Last night I was playing with 10 players left and had pock kings. The player under the gun shoved allin. He was in second. Two people called him and were allin. I folded simply because I was in 8th and would make the money if under the gun won and would still be in the game if one of the others won. He had pock jacks and hit set on flop. Turned out to be a good fold. I know a lot of people would disagree with the fold but you have to look at your ranking and sometimes a fold can benefit you.

Well it turned out to be a good play but I prefer to play my hands and let the chips fall where they may.I go for 1st in every tournamnet I play in.I simply will never ever fold AA or KK.Thats just me though and I am a losing player but I have my moments

#19 15th July 2009, 10:26 PM

i have to say i agree with most of what is being said but play your hands dont fold aa thats madness and overly extreeme you win with aa 80% of the time so if you played 10 sng and it came down to your aa everytime witch it could you would win 8 of them a profit of $25 instaed of laying it down and hoping someone does the hard work for you and still only winning about 70% if your lucky also scope out who is over tight and attack there blinds most of the time you dont even need to look at your hand esspeacially on double throughs with 8-6 players left

#20 15th July 2009, 10:29 PM

I try to avoid the "races" for as long as I can BUT when short stacked and with a big ace or lower pair type of hand i'll bet 2-3xBB preflop to hopefully reduce field. I hope to influence the other short stacks not to go allin and race. If they do go allin you can still race with with them but now you have more info as the betting went around the table and back to you.
If the 2-3xBB bet is called the flop gives you other options...bluff/bet/allin etc. I have to be very short stacked to call an allin before me. I hate races and continuation bets!

#21 15th July 2009, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaded848

This is often my problem. When I reach the endgame, I am either shortstack or just one above the shortstack. I'm trying to "get to a larger stack quick," but it all depends on if the cards fall my way (i don't try to bluff people out of pots, too many people call with bottom pair).

Yeah, i know, i have had games to were i could not get a thing, not even bottom pair. When you do have cards coming your way get as much value out of them as you can.
Also when there is a large stack player try to play your A game, on him, or her.. If you find one loose player, at the table, you must play tight, get as much of your stack in preflop as you can.
If i have high PP, and know i will end up getting called on a 3 bet, i will shove haft my stack preflop, and even if it means i just take down the blinds.

One thing i did find out, it may help you, and that is. I will just keep my stack at 1500 to 2000 when the blinds are low, i start hitting pots when the blinds hit 50, up to 200, this way i can take down bigger pots..
Also use traps on trips but make sure there are no draws. If you hit a full house, and theres a flush, and there maybe the odds some one as hit it, i would wait till the river, shove all-in. that has worked, only went bad on me one time.
Also well your waiting on the blinds, it gives you time to get a read on them, to find out if there loose, or tight.

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