Question for new online players please.

If you have recently started playing online poker, can I ask a few questions?

1) Are/were you aware that your opponents could be using computer programmes (such as pokertracker PAHUD and pokeroffice) that are artificially gaining information about your hand histories and your playing style, and are using that information in an attempt to get an advantage over you?

2) If yes, is that an issue or a concern? Have you purchased and used such a product yourself?

3) If no, is it a surprise? Is it a concern, and would you maybe not have started playing online if you had known about the poker assistance programmes before hand?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Note for new players: Just to be clear, Rob's questions are not about cheating or illegal software; he's referencing PokerTracker and PokerOffice as examples which are both allowed and legal for use at poker sites.

So the question really becomes, are you aware that there are programs out there, such as PokerTracker and PokerOffice, that allow you to gather hand histories at various sites so that you can both analyze your game as well as gain public information of your opponents' playing styles/habits that you can use towards future decisions once your sample size is minimally adequate?

Well, I got a bankroll together and started playing for real money about 8 months ago. When I started playing online in freerolls, I had no idea about poker tracker, ect. However, when I made the switch to playing for real money, I was aware of this fact.

I, personally, didn't mind. At the very low limits I play at, players rarely use this software. Additionally, players have very big leaks in thier game that are more important to notice than, say, their VPIP stats.

So maybe once I move up to say 25$ NL or more, I might consider buying pokertracker. But until then, its not a concern of mine.

...1) yes
2) no don't care
3) N/A

^^ that. except i started more like 5 months ago. and currently, i have enough leaks in my game to be visible without needing the help of a software. :-/

Are there outside collections or libraries of player archives that provide aggregate histories from all available public poker sites (rooms as well as discussion forums) of players one has never encountered before?

I would imagine if available from a site publicly, someone is collecting and selling the data to those willing to pay for the convenience and completeness of information.

If these services do exist, for an experienced player, do you consider the data to be relevant and of value?

As a player who isn't very good, yet, I find my concentration is best utilized by focusing on my own data, and learning what it produces. Yes, I agree that some thought must be expended on the opposition, but as a neophyte, self examination is currently my greatest opportunity.

Buying datamined hands does occur, as does mutual swapping afaik.

And yes datamined hands are very useful to say the least. I haven't bought any, especially as my main site is Pokerstars which doesn't allow datamining (so I see it as sort of unethical), but it's quite tempting.

You think it's unethical because Pokerstars thinks it's unethical?

Not having a go, just seems a curious thing to say.

Data mining of Poker Stars does take place, otherwise how does Bluff Magazine know all the stats from everyone who plays there?

How are they useful, what practical knowledge are you provided that improves your decisions in a meaningful way during a hand?

And please, I mean no offense, but if you have no experience from buying and using the player data real time, how do you know the information is useful during play and not a distraction from more relevant table clues or players yet to act?

Does too much information become a liability?

In a game where we try to predict what an opponents cards are while they're face down, there's rarely such thing as too much information.

Well AFAIK pokerstars doesn't allow you to datamine. Yes people do it, but if they are caught then they are told to stop or are banned.

So if they say datamining is not allowed, then I'm not gonna do it. I think sharing of hands <ahem> is ok b/c at least the person you are interacting with has played in the hands, so thats ok in my book .

Don't get me wrong I have datamined on other sites that have allowed it. So Im not against it per se.

As to why stats are useful. Well, I'm a multi tabler, and keeping notes and observations on players is almost impossible unless you have a photgraphic memory or in my case PT and a HUD.

It can give you a host of stats on a villain, from there VPIP, pre flop betting range, to how often the steal blinds or folds their BB to a steal. It can give you stats on how often someone donk bets, how often they 3-bet or folds to a 3bet. Can you now see why this is a distinct advantage to have these stats on your HUD?

1) Yes, I am aware.
2) No, I think it's OK. I haven't gotten one myself, but am considering doing so.

Hmm, I have been playing on only Pokerstars and didn't know that there was really such a program. But luckly, Pokerstars doesn't allow that, so I have no fear.

I think that such a program is kind of cheating, or unethical. Its really using technology to skew the results. At a table in person, you don't have all that information at hand, you have to use your own judgement and everything that you have from your previous experience to make a desicion. Oh well, thats my thoughts.

Well whether or not it is ok, it IS illegal on Stars. Of course it's next to impossible to enforce, but I believe on their site they state that sharing dbs is illegal, that all data you use must have been acquired yourself.

Didin't realize that Zach, but thx for pointing it out.

1. Am aware now, so thanks for heads up
2. But no, not worried - not consistent enough yet
- would love to see what it says about me, would be my only interest in acquiring the software

- Does anyone know if changing your id periodically would work to foil it?
- Seems like easy enough to have multiple users on most of these sites, might even want to play each with different personalities and see what works best
?

Actually, I think it's okay to think it unethical to datamine on Stars, but not on FullTilt (or whatever site that allows it) for no other reason than the specific rules on the site. It's just a matter of playing by the same rules as everybody else. I don't datamine (honestly, it's more because I'm lazy than for some spectacular reason involving integrity) but I don't consider people who datamine on FullTilt unethical. I would, however, object to the same people doing it on Stars. I can choose not to play at sites that allow datamining, so by playing at Stars, I'm essentially trusting my opponents not to know stuff about me that happened in hands I didn't play against them. If they violate that trust by doing something they've agreed not to when signing up at the site, I consider that unethical.

Speaking of hands they didn't play with you, for hands they did play with me I thought the notes feature would be great to keep track of players I had played, but either I've never come up against someone again, or notes are only good for the event you're in. Can anyone confirm that pokerstars software doesn't keep the notes you make? I'vemade enough that I think I would have seen one again.

I am new to playing poker and made my first deposit just recently. Yes I knew there were programs out there being used when I used to just play for real money. However I don't really know how they work or what they actually accomplish AND i for sure didnt know that it was LEGAL AND I CAN USE ONE TOO lol

The software issue is well known among people that have played online for any length of time, I would think. Just look at the PokerStars lists to see just an example of the number of programs out there.

I personally don't have an issue with keeping stats on players that you have played before because it's the online equivalent of "making book" on live players that you've played. You loose so much in the way of physical tells, emotion, etc. in playing online vs live that, IMO, compiling numbers on your opponents is a reasonable alternative, and not at all unethical -- especially when the site specifically allows it. Remember also that these tools are extremely useful not only for analyzing others' play, but your own as well. It's a lot easier to look at past performance and spot leaks, trends, how you play certain hands, etc. Even without considering other players' stats, these tools can make you a better player.

Now datamining is another thing altogether. I don't believe it's fair to have extensive knowledge of how somebody plays that you've never played before. So I appreciate the fact that PokerStars disallows this, and while I know it happens anyway, I feel a little more comfortable playing there than somewhere else where mining is allowed or even encouraged.

This has been posted many times I know, but for the benefit of the folks posting here who are new and unaware of these programs, here is the current PokerStars lists of allowed and disallowed software.

Prohibited Online Poker Software Programs

ALLOWED:
NOT ALLOWED:

1. No
2. No
3. No