Pot Odds question pertaining to odds such as 4:3, 6:5, and 7:3

Hey guys I have a total noob question for ya. Unfortunately I don't hang around ANYONE that likes poker. As odd as that sounds I swear to god I'm not even kidding you! So I've been basically trying to teach myself using online tutorials, forums, and youtube vids. I'm not about to head down to the casino and learn to play the hard way until I get a better understanding of a few things.

One of those being pot odds. I understand the outs and how to go about calculating those. What I'm a little foggy on is figuring out my pot odds and how to apply them to my hand. I found a cool online training tool on pokertrainer.se that has helped me quite a bit but there's a few things I'm not getting when I do the pot odds training exercise.

My question is this. The training sets u up w/ what's in the pot and your opponents bet. It also gives you a list of odds to choose from. I undertand the simple ones 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 I don't understand the other 3 odds on the exercise and how to get them thus screwing me when I go thru the training. These are 4:3, 6:5, 7:3

There's also this little "X 5 s" that appears sometimes that I don't understand either.

Any help explaining the odds listed above and how to get them would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
-Ian

You could also express 4:3 as 1.3:1, 6:5 as 1.2:1, and 7:3 as 2.3:1. They're really no different than the others except you don't get a round number in relation to one. If you're getting 4:3 pot odds, you need about a 43% chance or better of winning the pot to continue. (Take 100, divide by 7, and multiply that times 3).

X5s might represent a five plus any other card of the same suit. In what context is it used?

Ok so if I'm correct in using that formula then 6:5 = 27% and 7:3 = 30% making 4:3 odds much better than either 6:5 and 7:3? If this is true than 6:5 odds and 3:1 odds are pretty close. When would you use 6:5 over 3:1 then?

The X5s doesn't appear every hand the drill gives you. It only happens on certain hands. I'm just trying to decifer it and apply it as I generally come up w/ the wrong odds on one of those hands. It comes up as "a red X button +5 s"

http://pokertrainer.se/Poker_Training.aspx (under pot odds training)

Um, no. 3:1 odds equals 15:5 odds. 7:3 is better than 4:3, which is better than 6:5. With 6:5 odds you'd need a little better than 45% chance of winning. It's not quite 1:1 (50% chance). Like if someone gives you five apples and he has six, then he offers you a coin flip (50/50 shot) at winning all eleven apples if you wager your five, you'd be correct to do it because your chance of winning is slightly greater than the amount you need to wager.

7:3 is a bit better than 2:1, in that you'd only need around a 27% chance of winning to call (and with 2:1 you'd need 33%).

I'm not sure how accurate the quiz answers are on that site considering the numbers it sometimes comes up with. When it asks what odds you'd be getting when your opponent bets 4,000 chips into a 1,000 chip pot that's 4:5 (and at that point you wouldn't be counting outs but would instead need to be reasonably sure you already had a winning hand), but the worst odds you can select from are 6:5. Please don't take those quiz answers as gospel.

I couldn't find the red X thing you mentioned. Sound almost like a broken graphic.

Ahhh ok. I'm still a little lost on a few things (which I'm sure is because I'm over thinking) but I see where my math was wrong. This is starting to make a little more sense to me now. I just need to figure out how to quickly find them apply them now. Are 2:1 - 3:1 - 4:1 - 7:3 - 4:3 and 6:5 the most common odds you're dealing w/ when using Pot Odds?

Thanks for the help!

Not really. Some of the most common and useful are:

• 4.11:1 (9 outs) - chance of completing a flush draw with one card to come
• 1.86:1 (9 outs twice) - chance of completing a flush draw with two cards to come (and you know you'll see both cards, in a situation such as being all in)
• 4.75:1 (8 outs) - chance of completing an open straight draw with one card to come
• 2.18:1 (8 outs twice) - chance of completing an open straight draw with two cards to come (and seeing both)

When doing real-time calculations, I usually round them up or down and say 2:1 to complete a straight or flush draw with two cards to come, 4:1 to complete a flush draw with one card to come, and 5:1 to complete a straight draw with one card to come. There are odds tables out there that you can print out and have in front of you while you play.

This strategy article may help as well: http://www.cardschat.com/odds-for-dummies.php

This is exactly what I was talking about in my first post in this thread:

Book Review: Poker Math That Matters

Pistol: If you're like me, thinking about 3:1 is much more difficult than thinking about 25%. I think part of this is because so little time is devoted to probability in school systems (perhaps rightly so); however; we always worked with percentages.

So, here's a chart that can really make things easier. In no-limit, you're constantly running across similar bet sizes. If you just memorize a few of these, you can quickly estimate how often you need to be good and then apply the 4/2 rule to your outs to see if you can call profitably or not.

Opponent bet:

2x pot - you must be good > 40%

Pot - you must be good > 33%

2/3 pot - you must be good > 28%

1/2 pot - you must be good > 25%

1/3 pot - you must be good > 20%

1/4 pot - you must be good > 16%


As you can see, in nlhe, most of the time you'll be between 20% and 33%. That makes it rather easy.

So, using the 4/2 rule, you can see how easy it is to apply this.

You have 9 outs with the nut flush draw, and your opponent goes all-in on the flop. His bet was a pot-size bet.

The 4/2 rule: you multiply your outs times 4 since you'll be seeing both the turn and river. This gives you 36%.

Your opponent bet pot, so you know from the chart above you need to have at least 33% equity. You have 36%. Call.

Not bad, huh? And you're not messing with any ratios in there.

@ Roundcat - Thanks for the explanations to my questions. I really appreciate you taking the time to help. I honestly think I was just WAY over thinking the whole pot odds concept. I'm still a little shaky on some of the lingo and was wondering if you'd be kind enough to explain one more thing for me. I'm going to pull an example from your last post. How do I read and understand the bolded part.

4.11:1 (9 outs) - chance of completing a flush draw with one card to come

I'm starting to connect the dots w/ odds and I'm sorta hellbent on understanding them in full. What do those numbers in that particular order tell me. I see there is a dot between the 4 and 11 and then my chances after the semi colon.

@Owen - Thanks a lot for the insight. I'm definitely going to hit up your website and check it out at some point today.

I have been using the 4/2 rule and will continue to break down the math as it interests me more so than even the game sometimes but you bring up some great short cuts. I commit things to memory w/ ease so I do have a question for you just to make sure I have this right before I give it a go.

After the flop I count my outs and multiply by 4 and then after the turn I multiply those outs by 2. Now during the betting process after the flop, after the turn, and then after the river card is shown I should be using these percentages below to bet accordingly along the way. Is my understanding correct?

Remember to only do that when you'll be seeing both the turn and river without betting on the turn (e.g. getting all-in on the flop).


Betting is a total different story. Examining your pot odds is for the more passive play of calling or folding. Looking at aggression with betting and raising, things change. We're not getting odds, we're laying odds to our opponent. There are still some good ways to understand this easily because it's all a reward to risk ratio (I realize that might be foggy at this point in your learning, but the book and/or videos at DTB will clear it up instead of me getting carpal tunnel here )

4.11:1 is just a 4.11 (4 and 11/100) to 1 ratio. Think of it as being slightly higher than 4 to 1. For example, you have a flush draw on the turn. The pot is 3000 and your opponent bets 1000, so you're getting 4:1 to make the call (you'd be putting in 1000 -- think of it as one unit -- to win 4,000, four units). Since the chances of making of making your flush are a little worse than 4 to 1 (they're 4.11 to 1), you'd be making a small mistake to call based on direct pot odds alone. That's where things like implied odds come in (how much you think your opponent will pay you off if you end up making your hand), or taking the role of aggressor as QTip mentioned above rather than passively calling or folding.

I suggest using Phil Gordon's math process. It is simple and easy to figure mentally. Pot Odds=Pot/bet. Break even point =1/(Pot odds+1). Use rule of 4 and 2 to figure winning Percentage. If winning percentage is bigger than break even point you call, if smaller fold.

I appreciate the help guys. That makes things a whole lot clearer to me now. Should I get this down before I move onto Implied odds?

Not necessarily. Implied odds involve a lot of guesswork, but the actual odds ratios remain the same. If you're not getting good enough direct odds on a particular street to make a call, you need to decide whether you can make enough extra on future streets to make up for that disadvantage, or if your opponent will shut down and not pay you off if you hit your hand.

There are also reverse implied odds, or how much you stand to lose when you make your hand but are still beat.

It's really admirable that you want to get this stuff down! A lot of players who are just learning say "screw it" and play incorrectly until they've spent a lot more time at the tables and figured it out. A good exercise might be to print out an odds chart and play some limit hold 'em until you're familiar with using pot odds while playing. You're rarely worrying about implied odds there but are commonly making odds-based decisions.

Thanks I think this kind of stuff is super important to the game. Even though I'm not a pro and sometimes certain concepts are very hard for me grasp for the time being I want to play better competition w/o getting crushed and in order to do that I gotta know what the hecks going on LOL! It's also not about the money for me I just enjoy playing the game and trying to push my intuition and quick thinking to the max to try to out smart or out play an opponent.

Honestly and I'm just generalizing here but ANYONE can win w/ pocket Aces. But how do you know when to play a 6-9 suited? Or how do you go after a straight w/o busting when all you have is a 4-7 unsuited? I've seen people w/ small hands properly bring the heat w/ something like that against a big pocket pair and win!

I've always tried to listen to everyone's different approaches and opinions. I sift thru it all and let the good info rise to the top. I am constantly experimenting. Like say I see someone get blasted here on cardschat for giving "bad info". Unfortunately opinions are like A-holes and just because 1 or 2 people on a forum condemn someones strategy doesn't mean it doesn't have something at the very base of it to offer. So I break it down and then hit up the play money tables or bring it to a friendly game w/ some friends and try it out. I can't tell you how many tidbits of info I've picked up from "bad info" and improved my game by expanding my knowledge and philosophy of the game. AND it also lets you get into the mind set of another player by dissecting their game which can be VERY VERY rewarding if you use this against similar acting opponents on a table.

But before I write a book I appreciate all the help on this thread. I've got a much better understanding and grasp of pot odds. As a matter of fact I just realized that I've been using implied odds and value betting w/o even knowing that I was doing it. Now I just gotta break it down and figure out the math behind them LOL!

-Ian