pokerstars double or nothing SNGs

Could someone please tell me what is the best strategy to play the double or nothing tournaments on pokerstars.

Thanks

Telboy

We have a member who coaches these - I will try to remember to point him this way tomorrow.

And she didn't even have to track me down.

Quick advice in a [nutshell]:

Play uber tight early.
Call uber tight.
Steal when you can in the mid/late game.
Be aware of your stack size, fold equity and the stack sizes of the other players. Often these things take precedence over your cards.
[/nutshell]

If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.

I have once again given these a chance. I have been cashing in about 70% of these, so I think I have a pretty firm grasp on strategy. I just want to make sure that I am using the correct approach. When you say "steal", you are talking mid to late game with 6-7 players left and blinds around 100/200 or higher. With stack sizes relative to blind, we are still talking shove/fold strategy here, correct? So steal attempts should still be made with stregth of hand, and shoved PF?

Steal shoves (assuming that this includes value shoves) should begin at 50/100 (assuming the standard Stars structure) depending on your stack size, position, and how tight remaining villain calling ranges are.

-The shorter you are relative to the blinds, the wider you can shove
-The tighter remaining villains are, the wider you can shove
-The less villains remaining in the hand there are, the wider you can shove
-The more even villain stack sizes are, the wider you can shove (another way to state this is that if there are super short stacks that are about to blind out, play "uber tight")

Bingo.

used to play the PLO coolers on ipoker.Often you could cash without playing a hand. The 20% rake there put me off eventually. Stars probably tougher but less rake so swings and roundabouts. I heard a lot of players specialize in these so you need to be aware of who you are playing. Calling stations are fair game in these I imagine.

+1.

Oh don't steal to much, they will pick up on it and start shoving on you.
Only try stealing when it's folded to you.
Stealing may not work if you have a loose player they will call.

when your stack is big enough just sit and relax. I see players with huge stacks playing everything and bubble

Hard for them to shove on you when you've already shoved on them.

after the 50/100 level you really shouldn't be trying to "play" poker. It's pretty much a binary game at that point, push or fold.

This has been the strategy that I have been using most recently, and I have been getting great results. I find the $1 DoN more hit and miss than the $5, but I am showing very high return in these games as of late.

BTW...Wurly, it has been a pleasure playing in a few of these the last couple days.

That sn looks familiar. Glad a fellow CCer is doing well

I'm building my roll back up after cashing out. $10 -> $275 in 4 days with fairly safe bankroll management = big time run good though I'm surprised at how easy these things still are even aside from the run good. I want to move back up to the $10s but those things look ridiculously reg infested and I don't want to get into a variance filled grindfest X(. Eh, maybe the regs are too tight and are exploitable. I'll probably throw some sessions in if the infestation doesn't subside somewhat in the next few days.

On a positive note, the new VIP program looks awesome for DON grinding

Yeah, I tried chatting with you during the game last night but you kept ignoring me .

I had been playing the $1 and $5 DoN's, and have quickly realized that the variance at $5 is far less than at $1. I was cashing in 60% of the $1 and I have cashed in 86% of the $5. So now that I have built up my BR some, I think I'm going to make the $5 my regular game, and I might take a stab at a $10 here and there. Actually, I played on $10 game this morning and cashed in that one too. I am finding that the reg's are fairly predictable and can be easily exploited because they operate under the same thinking that you do. But one is inevitably going to make a mistake and either push when weak or call when behind, and it's pretty simple to ride it out once the table is down to 7.

I was thinking the same thing about grinding. Points should be fairly easy to come by, and rewards should be pretty frequent. I like it.

Sorry, I run a lot of tables so I don't have time to chat during the game.

With all due respect, you are running good at the $5s. There is no way even 70% itm is sustainable at the $5s. You're going to need a sample size of at least 500+ to get anything close to your true roi. Unless your roi is higher at the $5s than the $1s, your variance will be larger at the $5s.

Also, it is much more +EV to have fish at your table than regs. People who call really tight are not exploitable, it is just the most +EV way to play. Now granted, I'm guessing some of the regs are too tight but if you have 10 people left at 100/200 blinds, it inevitably becomes a game of who has the best push/calling ranges. I will never register over a bunch of regs when playing a set of games. I have a relatively large sample size that says that my roi is much higher in non reg infested games.

Pushing when weak may be the correct play depending on the circumstances. I regularly ship rags against regs from MP/LP if I am shortstacked knowing that they can't call with anything except premiums against my perceived range. I shove very wide sometimes and very very tight at others. Most people including many of the regs (one reg called me with QQ when I shipped when I can only have AA) don't seem to understand when I am doing what and just play super tight near the bubble.

Calling when behind is almost always wrong (as is calling when marginally ahead). However, there are circumstances when you are getting ridiculous pot odds where it is +$EV (as opposed to +cEV) to call with any two.

Good luck to you, and happy holidays

Trust me. I agree that I have been running ridiculously hot at the $5 DoN. I think part of that has to do with the fact that wins and losses at this level matter significantly more to me than at the $1 level. I fully expect my ROI and placing % to drop over a large sample size. But I am quickly learning that the $1 and $5 DoN are very beatable and will show me a profit long term if I continue to play my best game.

Now, I fully understand what you are saying about playing with fish and playing with regs. At the same time, at this stage in my career, I have not scouted the levels above where I play at to find out who is a regular and who is not. I am assuming that EVERYONE is, so that i'm playing my best game at these events all of the time. I guess that my philosophy is that I don't need to finish the event in the chip lead, I just need to not get knocked out. So, nitty play is the way that I go until I see a steal opportunity to exploit so that I don't have the blinds eat me. I would rather have nitty players at the table than loose callers, so that my blind steals have value. And this is another reason why I believe that I am having more success at the $5 than the $1. Not saying that fish aren't +EV, because they are (I still have profitable placing % and ROI against the fish), but they are also more risky to play against because they play EVERYTHING.

Just because I know that I come off sounding negative a lot, I am not, in any way, saying anything negative about your game, or that you aren't profitable.

Regs are anyone that play lots of tables. If someone starts a batch of 10+ games, they are a reg 99% of the time. There are some who play continuous as opposed to sets but you should be able to identify these people after awhile, especially with a hud.

This thinking is very +EV. However, if you play at a table full of competent regs, there will be lots of shoving and you will blind out if you only shove with good cards. If you play a decent sample in reg infested games, you should figure this out pretty quickly.

I am going to disagree that you are having more success at the $5s because people are tighter. This is like saying the micro stakes MTTs are hard to beat because there are so many fish (albeit for different reasons). Ever heard the phrase, "move up to where they respect your raises"? The thing to know about fish is that they are calling EVERYONE light, not just you. They are just as risky to play against for the rest of the table as they are to you and they make highly -$EV plays near the bubble. (I need to reboot my computer because HEM isn't working but I'll show an extreme example of this from a recent game)

Think of it this way. Any -EV play that is made benefits you. Fish make more -EV plays than regs.

I didn't take any of what you said as a knock. You've got a far larger sample size than I do, so you would be able to share a larger wealth of knowledge about the topic than I can.

Just a couple general comments. I may be able to offer my experiences but in the end, you are the only person to convince yourself to play the way you do. Go with what you feel is right. Just make sure to review your play and learn from any mistakes you make. Heck, I may be offering you bad advice so make sure you can organize and comprehend it in your mind before taking any of my advice. I'm not a coach or anything but maybe gallopingael would have some input on some of the stuff we discussed.

Now onto why fish are +EV to play against:

--------------------
HAND 1
--------------------

$5.20 Buy-in (300/600 blinds, 60 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tourney, 6 Players
Poker Tools by Stoxpoker - Hand Details


CO: 2,710 (4.5 bb)
BTN: 3,105 (5.2 bb)
SB: 2,920 (4.9 bb)
BB: 2,205 (3.7 bb)
UTG: 2,050 (3.4 bb)
Hero (MP): 2,010 (3.4 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP with 3♣ 6♣
2 folds, CO calls 600, BTN calls 600, SB folds, BB checks

Flop: (2,460) 9♦ T♠ K♦ (3 players)
BB checks, CO bets 600, BTN calls 600, BB folds

Turn: (3,660) K♥ (2 players)
CO checks, BTN bets 1,800, CO calls 1,450 and is all-in

River: (6,560) 8♦ (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results:[spoil] 6,560 pot
Final Board: 9♦ T♠ K♦ K♥ 8♦
CO showed K♣ Q♥ (three of a kind, Kings) and lost (-2,710 net)
BTN showed Q♣ J♣ (a straight, Nine to King) and won 6,560 (3,850 net)
[/spoil]

This hand is a little bit of a cooler but the plays the fish make are lol so it illustrates my point.

The BB, UTG and Hero are about to be crippled by the blinds. However, CO and BTN decide to spew off some chips by limping (awesomeness #1). Next, CO flops top pair Q kicker and min bets while BTN flops the nuts but decides to slow play on a drawy two flush board (awesomeness #2). Turn gives CO trips who decides to slowplay his "monster" and check/snapcalls the BTN's bet. Holecards are flipped face up, UTG and Hero smile, and the game is over.

Now obviously the shortstacks benefit from this particular flop (though I guarantee you BTN can't get away from a Q high board) but limping here by both the CO and BTN are terrible and are the kind of -EV plays that make fish, highly +EV to play against.

OK. Now that we are talking a little bit deeper about game play scenarios, here is how I attack a table in these events.

1) I know my table position and my own image at all times. I won't make a shove with a marginal holding when in position if I have made multiple steal attempts recently. Conversely, I will shove any type of connected cards when in position and I have been sitting quiet for a period of time. There are obvious psychological reasons behind these decisions.

2) I know through observation what players are apt to shove, and what players are apt to make weak calls when they think that they can limp. When I have any above marginal holding, I will attack these limpers when i'm in position and either force a fold or a weak call because they are committed.

3) If I am one of the larger stacks at the table, I will make shove attempts at any given opportunity (unopened pot while i'm in position) with ATC against a small and crippled stack. They are in a position where both decisions are -EV for them.

The scenario you mentioned above is exactly what I try to avoid in my own play, but wait for to play out at the end of the event. It is almost like clockwork that with 7 remaining there are still weak limpers that will allow themselves to get eaten alive by hands just like the one above. But, it is good talking theory with you, because by no means do I think my game is where it could be, and you are opening my eyes to at least different possibilities that I could see in game play.

I like this though I don't understand why you constrain yourself to connected cards. Also, remember to consider chip stacks relative to blinds as that is the most important factor.

Meh, this seems very dicey. Attacking limpers is generally -$EV unless you know they'll fold with high frequency. When you steal, you want people to fold for the most part. Remember that you rarely want to be in a 60/40 unless you are short.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, this is very -$EV. When you have a larger stack, you want to protect your chips. You should open fold unless you have a very strong holding. With a larger stack, you probably need 2:1 chip expectation in a pot to make it +$EV.

Also, a player can not have all -EV decisions as the opportunity cost of taking an option is another option. Therefore if someone can either fold or call, one is +EV and the other is -EV.

It seems like your sample size is very small so its probably best to just play a bunch of games (as opposed to discussing theory) as you seem to have a firm grasp of the game. Good luck!

1) Yes, I still think I play a little bit too tight at times. I think that I do need to open my range up a little bit. But then again, I am looking more to take advantage of situations rather than cards. I try to make the best decision possible given the situation, and let the cards fall where they may. Up to this point, i'd say i've been making a good analysis of situations, and i've managed to get in with the best of it the majority of the time when it's come to showdown's in late stages.

2) Of course i'm not attacking limpers with ATC when my expectation is that they would call. Generally speaking, I know that they make weak calls to limp in cheap, but fold to any resistence. Therefore, attacking these limpers when they are on a mid to small stack is very adventagous because they don't want to commit their tourney life until they KNOW they have the best of it.

3) I typed this part horribly. I attack smaller stacks when there are multiple small stacks when at the bubble. I can see why this COULD be a -EV decision, and I may have to re-evaluate this part of my game. My reasoning behind attacking the small stacks is that their situation is almost -EV where they are going to have to get in with any marginal hand and hope for the best, or fold and hope they don't blind out before someone else gets knocked out. It's not a good situation to be in when you are being shoved constantly.

Like I said, I still have a lot of room to improve in my game and I definately appreciate the analysis based on the information that I have provided.

If you want more evidence of fish being more generous than regs:

--------------------
HAND 1
--------------------

$5.20 Buy-in (400/800 blinds, 80 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tourney, 6 Players
Poker Tools by Stoxpoker - Hand Details


SB: 6,410 (8 bb)
BB: 1,700 (2.1 bb)
UTG: 1,830 (2.3 bb)
MP: 4,030 (5 bb)
Hero (CO): 340 (0.4 bb)
BTN: 690 (0.9 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is CO with 6♦ 5♣
UTG calls 800, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks

Flop: (2,880) 4♥ 3♠ 7♠ (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks

Turn: (2,880) 9♣ (3 players)
SB bets 800, 2 folds

Results:[spoil] 2,880 pot
Final Board: 4♥ 3♠ 7♠ 9♣
SB showed and won 2,880 (2,000 net)
[/spoil]


...followed by...


--------------------
HAND 2
--------------------

$5.20 Buy-in (400/800 blinds, 80 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tourney, 6 Players
Poker Tools by Stoxpoker - Hand Details


BTN: 8,410 (10.5 bb)
SB: 820 (1 bb)
BB: 950 (1.2 bb)
UTG: 3,950 (4.9 bb)
Hero (MP): 260 (0.3 bb)
CO: 610 (0.8 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP with 8♠ 7♥
3 folds, BTN calls 800, SB calls 340 and is all-in, BB checks

Flop: (2,820) 7♣ 9♥ 8♥ (3 players, 1 is all-in)
BB bets 70 and is all-in, BTN calls 70

Turn: (2,960) 6♣ (3 players, 2 are all-in)
River: (2,960) 2♣ (3 players, 2 are all-in)

Results:[spoil] 2,960 pot
Final Board: 7♣ 9♥ 8♥ 6♣ 2♣
BTN showed 4♥ 3♠ (high card Nine) and lost (-950 net)
SB showed J♥ J♣ (a pair of Jacks) and lost (-820 net)
BB showed 2♥ T♦ (a straight, Six to Ten) and won 2,960 (2,010 net)
[/spoil]

Somehow two people managed to jump the ladder on me as to who would blind out first. The UTG open limp in the first hand is lol bad. Then the SB call in the second hand may seem fine given that he has JJ but this is actually only AA (might include KK, I'm not 100% sure) given that both the BB and I have to survive all ins first. Early Christmas presents imo.

I had better luck with regular double or nothing over the turbo's. Patience is the key. Play few hands and observe the table, use your postition when you do come in. These are by far the tighest format you will play of the SnG's. If your not winning 75 % of the time you need to adjust. Either go for a lesser buy in or tighten up.

What buy in are you playing at and over what sample size?

Because if the regular speed DoN's are THAT soft then I may need to dive in.

I wish FT had this kind of tournament it sounds interesting... but I don't feel like downloading another poker app lol.

5.00 buy, non turbo. Should be able to average 7 out of 10.

Do you have a significant sample size (1000+) winning 70% of 5.40 DoNs or are you speculating that it is an achievable number? There are exactly two players according to tracking leaderboards who have a higher per game winrate at the $5s over their last 500 games and neither of them play on Stars.

you need FT. EVERYONE has FT for it's great range of games. I had 100 rooms downloaded til this morning when I got a memory message

uninstalled about thirty I never play at and some more will go when I get motivated again. Previously only had dial up so each download would take 30 mins or more. Not a problem now though with broadband.

oops you have FT don't you. well try Stars then for coolers.

.

Haven't played 1000+ games. Those I felt could be achieved from what I had played and yes it is specultive. That format to be honest didn't hold my interest. I don't play multitables, one table at a time and the action will lull you to sleep. However for those looking to build a bankroll and not looking to play free rolls for hours at time to cash, these would be the way to go.

At the 5 Turbos, 6/10 (15%) is within the realm of possibility for the best players. To have a similar hourly rate you'd have to win 7/10 in the regular speed games. It could be possible. I've never played a regular speed DoN so I don't really know. The competition could be weak enough to make that possible. You won't find as many regs in the non-turbos.

1 table at a time would cause me to look for a very tall building.

LOL hope your wearing a cape on that building.

Yeah I do lol I know the feeling of being tired and typing something wrong as a result... hmm maybe i should check out pokerstars dunno... im bad at change

Stay tight, and steal blinds as the blinds go up.

I only shove on the flop, or when i'm short stacked.
I play poker, not shove fold.

I play DON's just like a SNG, it seems to be working for me just fine..

Good strategy in the early stages. Mid to late, I want you sitting at my table.