Pocket Kings - fold after flop?

Just played this hand in a online tourney im still in...

I was dealt Pocket Kings (KhKs), so naturally, I reraised preflop about 10 times the BB, to knock out as many players as possible...

The flop was 3h, 9h, Ah, giving myself a flush draw, but that Ace just made me feel a bit weary.

Anyway, to test the waters and make sure no one else had a Ace in their hand, I bet 10 times the BB, everyone folded except for one guy who called.

Turn was 9clovers... river was Ace of whatever...guy turned over A9.

Should I have folded when he called my bet after the flop was dealt? Yes I understand that KK can be beat, but I guess it was hard for me to accept that he might be holding a Ace rather than a 9. A lot of people will play their nines...

I lost about half my chip stack chasing him down to the river. I'm still in the tourney and got myself back up to a healthy stack, but I wanted to know what you guys would do with Pocket KK, AFTER the flop was dealt after my bet was called.

player called 10x BB .. why not think he had an ACE in his hand... with that type of call id put him on AQ, AK range.. If i saw that A on the flop, id probably bet a smaller probe bet..

but thats just me..., him calling on the flop, i would think im beat and probably let the hand go

It was also a low $$ buy-in (since the big money ones don't really happen at this hour of a weekday).

I don't know, from my experience a lot of the lower buy in's draw people who WOULD call all-in when they flop a pair of nines.

Earlier in the same tournament I knocked out a player with A,Q who bet All-in with 9,3.

Your question is a little to vague to be answered properly. Now in your second post you stated it is a tournament so that is good.

We need to know what level the blinds are at.
How much is in everyones stacks
What are your reads on the villian
what stage of the tournament are you in on/near the bubble?

Sounds like you should have folded the turn but the questions above will change the answer you get.

also clovers are called clubs, just an fyi

Haha. Toadstool for the win (your chat icon).

I'm so used to calling them clovers...I guess because they look like 3-leaf clovers to me. I'll use the more accepted poker term from now on though =p.
The blinds were 50/100, I was chip leader at the table by atleast 60 times the BB.
The guy had about 1475 or something like that.
It was about 35 minutes into the tournament and nearly 20% of the field already eliminated.

So you raised to 1K and he called with 1475 leavin just 475 behind. If that is the case just put him all in for the last 475 on the flop no matter what at that point the pot is to big to fold even with the Ace on board.

That's what I did and he had a full house by the end of the hand.

you kind of have to assume someone has an ace if more than one person calls a 10x bb raise preflop. A better move may just to go all in on that, you would probably push out A9 or any Ax under maybe a j but then your still like a 70+% favorite to win the hand. Especially in a low buy in next time you may want to risk it.

atleast you didnt lose your whole stack thats something gl in the tourney!

I understand that but the results are irrellevant, it is about making the right decision. Usually a 10xbb raise is too big preflop but obviosly not if you are getting called by A9 in this case.

I think when he called 10x BB, I would have folded the K's or at least checked the turn to see what he would have done.
K's are like Ace magnets with me.

Better luck next time

like pennstater said i woulda bet smaller or probably just checked to him to see how he wanted play it then i woulda decided to play it or fold it.

ok first of all, your opponent had no business calling with A9 knowing that he could be dominated. that's his mistake and would only happen in a low buyin tourney. but i also feel you played this hand wrong. first of all, was it really necessary to raise to 10x bb? was the table so loose that a 10xbb raise has been seen as a standard raise? i seriously doubt it, and that's the first mistake you made - you let the pot get too big preflop. this has repurcussions in later streets because you're going to have to bet a higher percentage of your stack to price out your opponent. in this particular case, it doesn't really matter because you where the overwhelming chip leader against a much smaller stack, but if you were against a similar stack or even a mid stack, you would be crippled if you had lost the hand. in terms of the outcome in this hand, yea you got beat and it might have been unavoidable, but your play here was wrong. tournament strategy is all about survival, keep pots small so when you lose, you lose less.

I like your advice here about keeping pots small and all... its just from my experience in online low buy in tourneys, you literally have to get a huge chip stack from the get go, or risk going up against monstrous MANIACs (who will call anything) when the blinds go up.
I raised 10BB because I had pocket Kings. I think my bet was effective preflop since nearly the entire table folded (save for those two).
You're also right about calling a 10xBB with A,9 offsuit. I noticed a lot of maniacs play the game of luck in the lower buy in tourneys. I was only there because it was early on a weekday, and there wasn't any of the more premium tourneys available.
Usually the higher buy ins result in more actual "poker".

If i got a couple callers for 10 times the BB and an ace flopped I would normally just give up. The reason is that if they didn't have the sense to fold a weak ace before the flop, they probably won't let it go after the flop, and they may very well have AK. Sometimes I throw a small bet out there and if they fold thats great. If not wait for a better spot to get your chips in.

idd if somewone called 10 times BB and an ace floped you must now that he probably got an ace and you better fold

it's not a matter of whether raising 10BB was effective or not, it's a matter of whether it was necessary. why raise 10BB when 5BB would achieve the same result?

You bet out to get info. You got what you wanted. Respect his bet and fold to wait for the next time. Also note it that he will call 10xBB with A9. This is some of the best info you can get.

Have you not answered your own question?

You "Test the waters" someone calls then in a later post you say u did not believe he had an ace? So why ask the question in the first place if u r not going to accept the answer?

I think that sometimes people get carried away with the fact it is a low level buy in. Just because someone pushes with 93o it does not follow that everyone will do the same.

I also do not think u needed to bet 10 times BB. First, the bet should be in relation to the size of the pot, not the blinds after the flop.

So, if u bet 1/4 of the pot here, u find out.

I would have bet, then once I had one caller I would have shut up shop.

Another option in these games with KK is to push all in. You might get a caller with an ace, but u r a 70% fav unless he has AA, obviously.

Sounds like there couldn't have been a better time to fold KK

Instead of tipping your hand with a pussy bet on the flop, shove. You probably have the best hand plus the best draw so get it in. Dont over think this game.

I would have checked the river....He is sticking around for a reason. Anytime that Ace pops up with your underpair you have to be able to release that hand. I like the idea you bet on the turn with a draw, but you found out he is still hanging around. Darn Ace's anyway.....

Yeah getting rid of K's is tough, but I think I would have done it there.

LOL, sorry had to chuckle



He's worried about the ace on the flop and you say shove...GENIUS, especially since his opponent had the ace. Can we say...DONE!

No we cant say that. because we are just getting started. I know what he is worried about, because i can read, and that's what he wrote. secondly, he has 11 outs twice. so that makes him 1.35-1 to hit or 1/2.35 or 43% to end up with the nut flush or a set of Kings both of which will be good. so lets compare that to the pot odds. if he shoves and gets matched thats 1-1 pot odds right there. but after we factor in the money already in the pot, its a little better than that. if they started with a stack of 100 BBs then he would have 90 left so 90+20:90 or 110:90 or 11:9 or 1.2:1. Now that is still a slightly negative EV but lets not forget about folding equity. I'll give you that the ace probably isnt folding but almost everything else is. And there are a lot of hands left in his range that will have called a PF raise. ex. pocket pairs, suited connectors, QJ, KJ, KQ, QT, JT, KT. he is ahead of all of these hands except the pocket pairs that made sets and the aces which is relatively small percentage of the average late position PF raise caller's range. So if he shoves and gets called and he is behind he is almost 50-50 to suck out. but that is the least likely scenario. and its still not even that bad. once you factor in the fact that he will probably take down the pot or get called by a lesser hand like QhJc or pocket JJ he should be shoving all day. I ill be If your thinking is dominated by fear, as his was and yours is, you will miss hidden values like this. there is always something to be afraid of.

as i understand it he called your big pfr with A9o and left him with 475 behind? yup that's a mistake on his part, and since he has so few left the rest would be going in anyway so just put him allin on the flop. folding at that point would have been a mistake on your part

also don't worry too much about being outdrawn because people are calling loosely. just play correct ABC poker against them. If they outdraw, that's poker, but more often than not you'll be paid off

They called the raise.When the ace hit on the flop a check to to see what his bet is.Any bet I would have to put him on ace's and fold. He wouldn't bet with small pairs for fear of the check raise. I THINK I would have folded. Good luck!

Ok so I found myself in the same scenario last night in another tournament. In this case, I did the same raise, and everyone folded. In addition to getting my bet back, I also claimed the pot which was about $2000 chips.
Conclusion? When you play in a tournament with a much larger buy-in, the players are either too tight to call a monster raise, OR they're just not clueless idiots. I placed in the money in last night's tourney (made about 5x my buy in), yet I couldn't place at all in the lower buyin tourneys mainly because in my opinion, people just play too loose.

Happy belated Turkey Day everyone!

well you didnt post anything about what happen bet wise after the flop bet you made but if he called then he was sitten on an A but iof he bet after the turn or river i probably would have folded but if he didnt bet then you should just check to the river

Folding KK is always tough, but if you've raised and an Ace comes on the flop, chances are he's got you beat and you've got very little chance of hitting. In this case, I would of checked on the flop and seen what he did. If he bets, you have to fold. If he checks, put in a feeler bet on the turn and see what happens. If he goes over the top of you, chances are he's trapped you so it's best to fold again.

They say KK is about as good pocket 2's if there's an Ace on the board.

Yeah, KK and AA and I have a bad reputation. . .typically my aces get busted early in the hand, and the kings get trashed on the turn or river. . .sometimes, in the game of poker, you have to lose a hand. It's up to you how you lose that hand. You want to fold, or continue shortening your stack and then lose the hand.

For me the only answer is that you have to feel the situation out completely, make as informed a decision as possible, and the make the choice - check, call, raise, or fold.

I think your initial raise was way too high. No matter what the blinds were, 10 BB was too much. I would have raised 3-4xBB, betted little more than half the pot after the flop, betted half the pot on the turn (because you still have the flush draw) and check-folded on river (since you missed the flush) and risk facing an ace beating your cowboys.

Hmmm good question here.
I think that when they called your raise with the ace on the board rather than reraising would make me think they were weak.(like looking for the flush as well.
Since you were never reraised i would have not folded my kk after the flop.

with pocket kings i like to play a fairley medium size pre-flop raise. especially if i am in late position and there hasnt been action before me. if i see an ace on the flop i will probe a little. i would also figure my opponent would know when i am just making a probing bet. if he raises it up, i fold. not worth the risk. i like to protect my chips at all times.

I dont understand why people are saying you built too much of a pot preflop here.

You have KINGS!

I would love if I could get people to call 10 times the blind raises preflop every time I had kings. My goal is to get as much in the pot as possible when I look down at two kings.

I dont think that was your problem. One problem I see is that you should change your thinking after the flop from betting big blinds... to betting in comparison with the pot.

When I see a probe bet, most likely I'm gonna destroy it with a pot sized raise regardless of my holding, so any bet a quarter pot or less wouldnt work against me... however I'm not going to call a 10 times the blind raise with A9 either.

It would be easier to analyze had you told position etc. With that draw if he checked, I'm taking the free card. If I checked and he bet, it would all depend on what he bet and what my stack was in comparison to the pot. If he's got the ace you've got 9 outs. From there on its a little bit of math to decide how, and if, you will continue with the hand.

First, that's not a bet that you should make preflop unless it's all in. The fact is, unless someone has aces, they probably shouldn't call that, so other than the fact that you played with some donkey that put way too many chips in with a marginal hand, that bet generally just wins you blinds. After that, if they are calling you on the flop, it means they either have a flush or an ace. No other hand would call that.