My experience in going from 5NL to 10NL

Iv been doing pretty good at 5NL so I thought I would give 10NL a shot. I found it a massive difference in competition and quickly lost my buyin. Playing tricky with check-raise bluffs and 3-betting with air and stuff seems to work out for me in 5NL but the aggression in 10NL was way higher. Every tricky play I made they seemed to c through it and they only folded when I had a good hand.

Are the reading abilities much better at 10NL? What are the big differences I should watch out for?

I continued with another buyin as a last shot and 3 bet someone pf with 9 10s. Figured he had AA AK KK QQ or somethin so I knew hitting a good flop would pay off and I got 2 pair. So three bet and shove then I doubled my buyin so broke even again.

But I think im going back to 5NL lol because I cannot play tight for long periods of time and my loose play maybe isnt good enuf

I've never seen much difference between those two levels, both of which I still play at occasionally. It doesn't seem like you played very much at 10nl, which in turn suggests your experience and results may not be representative of the overall level of play. This is even more so for players who are on the loose side since they tend to have more variance.

Na I only played like 50 hands but it was just on first impressions. Took me a while do get comfortable on 5nl so maybe take a bit of time

TBH i think 10 is just as soft as 5NL. There is really no difference is level of play just a difference in stacks and BBs so maybe you were playing with scared money??

stick to ABC poker and fold those suited connectors and you should profit no problem

Try NOT 3betting T9s when you think your opponent has AK/QQ+ and I think you'll be much better off.

why cant you play tight?

How many tables do you play at once??

I ask because when i first started poker and before i joined CC i only had one table up (with my entire BR cuz i didn't know BRM at the time but thats besides the point) and i would randomly raise stupid hands (like 910s) from EP and other dumb shit.

I found out that i just get bored..i mean who wants to sit at the table and not play lol

So i increased my tables so i got more hands and could wait and play tight ABC poker (fairly tight that is...i think im like 15/11 or something in HEM)

Now i 6...occasionally 9table 10NL

I can play tight, i do in a lot of tournis, I just get bored like you said lol. I don't 3-bet 10 9s out of habit though lol. Sometimes If I know someone has a decent hand like AKs KK or somethin il try n get a sneaky disguised hand and if i hit the flop it makes it harder for them to put my on a small hand.

It was also quite a small 3-bet so it wouldn't have been a big loss if i missed. But my lack of experience means I will stay with 5nl for a while first. I'm on $25 profit so c if I can keep that up for a while.

It's good you are using your brain and stepping back down if you did'nt feel comfortable

you can always have another crack at it as well and see if it was just a bad session

inti

In regular ring, I don't see much difference, but in Rush there seems to be a big difference in late position agressiveness.

I think everyone downplays this, but its been my experience that there is a HUGE difference between levels, even at the micros. Most people here seem to say that there is little to no difference, but that has not been my experience. In fact, I'm at 10nl now and am barely a break even player after having decent success at the lower levels.

It's to the point where I'm thinking of dropping back down even though I'm rolled for higher just because who wants to play break-even poker?

I wish I could pinpoint exactly what the difference is, but I just can't put my finger on it. Its been quite frustrating to start thinking that 10nl may be as high as I ever get in poker, just because I don't seem to have the ability to go higher.

Anyway, here are my stats for the different levels:

.02nl -- 15.8BB/100 over 19K sample size
.05nl -- 5.7BB/100 over 49K sample size
.10nl -- 1.2BB/100 over 60K sample size

So, clearly, at least for me, there has been a big difference between levels. The competition has clearly gotten better while my game has not kept pace. I only play on PS and only play FR so your milage may vary by site/game.

The 15.88 bb/100 at 2nl has to be running pretty good, even over 19k hands. Try reviewing your hands and see if you are playing any differently? Even subtle things like bet sizing, because personally I find .02/.05 quite strange blind levels to play with as the bet sizing feels different, I still am unsure why it isnt .02/.04.

At OP if you think that the raiser is on a monster then why the hell would you 3 bet? if he is that huge he will shove.... this is like saying oh im just 3bet setmining.... its crazy

If only it really were that easy. I do play ABC poker, don't play garbage pre-flop, and play my good hands aggressively. I also play extremely tight, so its not a case of random spewiness playing sub-par hands. In fact, my HEM stats are usually in the 10/7 range. Probably TOO tight, I know, but if I widen my range, even a little, I quickly become a losing player overall.

Yeah, I definately need to spend more time on reviewing my hands. It SEEMS like I'm playing a similar game to the one I've always played, but maybe not.

As to why it isn't .02/.04, I have no idea. I guess I never really thought about it that much.

Good to step back down and heal the wounds. When the bankroll gets replenished, try it again. Always seems like we hot a downcycle when we move up in limits.

What is your AFQ? and position stats? On the button I think that you really should be playing at very least 17% of hands.. How often do you c-bet? I know one of my biggest leaks is that i c-bet too often without really thinking about it.. ABC poker is not just betting with good hands preflop then c-betting then giving up on turn if you havnt hit anything... I know when I first heard the expression that was all I thought it was but I have realised that it still has much to do with figuring out whether to bet or not depending on the flop and your hand and your opponents range.. I think the biggest thing is to not try and get tricky with your bluffs or your big hands.. Probably the most helpful piece of advice was when I was getting sweat and I got told that I should be check calling KK with an A on the board.. At the time I didnt think about it much but since then I have thought alot about it and (nearly always) this is the best play, compared to usually I would auto pilot and c-bet nearly every flop.

Basically, although it is ABC you still need to think about the reasoning behind WHY you are betting/folding.

Btw I am not a good player myself so my advice could be pretty horrible

QFT. I have been in a major downswing this week and one thing it did was force me to think seriously about my game. Although I got crushed by some epic coolers I also know that I had started to play a leaky, weaker game, calling too much and trying to play suited connectors. Truth is it is almost impossible to draw to straights or flushes profitably in NLHE if your opponents are smart enough to deny you Pot Odds to do so or often even Implied Odds if they are short stacked.

Not sure if 10/7 is necessarily too tight. I decided to stop playing speculative hands, stop set mining and try and play Raise/ Fold Poker in my last session. Now granted it was one session and I was seriously overdue to catch some winners but nevertheless:

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+1000!

There has to be a difference, else there wouldnt be anyone actually playing 2NL and 5NL as they would all be winning at 10NL wouldn't they?

Then all the worse players at 10NL would drop down to 5NL where they could find profit and so on. Is this like some reverse paradox?

Like I said before. The standard of play is generally a bit better but I think that this, combined with the rake we pay really sorts the wheat from the chaff.

You only really have meaningful samples at 5NL and 10NL and I would even say your 5NL numbers at 5.7 still need to converge a little. Go on to PTR and try to find a >100,000 hand sample over 5BB/100. I spent over a year kidding myself that 10BB/100 was achievable long term.

IMO you need to drop back down to 5NL. This is where you are makng a good profit for yourself (not just PS) Where you are confident in your game. Try to find another half dozen leaks, get them sorted and then take another shot at 10NL

Think we are both in a similar place owning 5NL but having trouble with 10. PM if you wanna pick my brain.

Sorry for not posting for a couple of days. Been busy with the holidays and all. I'm pretty new here to the forums, but as soon as I figure out how to post screenshots of my HEM stats I'll do so.

Yeah, I recently received this advice also. I used to just auto C-bet as well. Been just checking behind recently. Still haven't had enough hands with this new strategy to see if its more profitable or not than the CBet. I wonder though, if you are checking behind with K-K v. flopped Ace, are you doing this because so many people play any Ace, or just because its an overcard? In other words, if you had Q-Q, raised, and were flatted pre, if the flop came with a K, are you still checking behind? Or are you usually Cbetting this?

This is flawed logic. There are VERY bad players at every level. I've played many many 90+ vpip players at 100nl and I know they exist at much higher limits as well. Bad players don't practice BRM. They're all going to go broke eventually, some will do it slowly at 2nl and others will do it in 1 hand at 400nl. The stakes people play is much more a function of BR and how much they are comfortable losing than it is skill.

Yes there is probably a slight difference is the quality of the regs between levels but you're not out to make lots of money playing regs anyway. And at micro/low stakes there are so many players that you should be able to find lots of great tables with at least a couple of VERY bad players.

Still checking behind with QQ on K high boards. There does come a point though where we can just cbet. Say we raise 99 from the CO and the BB flats, I'll cbet an Ace high board against a lot of villains because if we check behind there are a lot of overcards that are going to make calling the turn/river a lot less profitable.

You can attach in advance reply the paperclip symbol. I still think you need to c-bet sometimes but I used to c-bet about 90%+ whereas now I c-bet around 60% of the time.

Ok, so here is my first attempt at posting my stats, pathetic as they are….



Hope this works, ‘cause I really have no idea what I’m doing. In poker, or in posting things like this apparently. Anyway, if you have any suggestions/advice/criticisms/etc. I’d be glad to hear them. Currently I’m about 1 more bad session from giving up this game entirely and putting my time to better use. I used to win at .02 and .05nl, but after playing the game for about a year and doing a little bit of studying/reading/watching videos/etc, I still can’t even beat .10nl. So, short of giving up the game, what can I do to show some improvement?

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Why are you looser from the worse position at the table than you are from all other positions????

Ummm...no. At least not for me. In addition to all the other skills that I lack, I apparently suck at table selection. Care to share your process?

Frequently I'll sit at a table that listed in the lobby as running about 30% vpip for the table (or as high as I can find without 10 other players already waiting to join) and quickly find that its running (according to HEM), more like 12/10 - 17/15 vpip/pfr for the table. And this is just at .10nl.

So, where are all these great tables, and why can't I find them? Is my criteria for joining tables flawed, or are the typical players at PS really all that TAG at only .10nl? I guess what I'm asking is what defines a great table for you? What do you look for in the lobby? What do you look for once you're seated and have seen just a few hands so that stats start to pop-up in you HUD?

Yeah, I know that stat pops out at me too. I think frequently I feel like I'm "priced-in" by having several limpers or an early small raiser and several callers before the action gets to me. In my mind, (probably flawed ), if the pot is laying me like 4 or 5 to 1 on a call, I'll usually make the call. I think that's going to be the first thing I try to adjust. Still, I'm NOT completing 80% of the time there. What is a reasonable % for completing from the SB?

Personally I think you should be 3-betting way more from the blinds, and basically play a little looser..

Personally I almost never just complete from the SB (on occasion with a small pp and a couple of really bad limpers maybe). I'll steal the line from Tommy Angelo in Elements of Poker (now available in ebook formats!!!), Why would I pay 1/2 price for something I don't want for free?

I also think you should play more hands from the BTN and CO at least. You could try 3betting more than just QQ+/AK as well.

Oh hey worst advice ever, I haven't seen you in a while.

OK, thanks guys. Lots of good stuff there that I want to try to integrate into my game. So far I've got:

tighten-up from the small blind
when I DO play from the blinds, play them more aggressively
loosen-up in general, but especially from LP
consider widening my 3-bet range

Yeah, that should keep me busy for a while .

By the way WVH, I've never heard of that particular book. I'll check it out too. At this point I feel I'm at a crossroads where I'll try anything to improve or, failing that, admit I'll never be "good" at poker and move-on to something else. Again, thanks for all the help.

Oh oh, the voice of dissent.... OK so either side, why should I either 3-bet more from the blinds, or not? A little insight into your reasoning/logic would be greatly appreciated. I DO really struggle with blind play, so....?

Ok, out of curiousity, I decided to post my .05nl stats as well for comparison. Comments? As you can see as was winning at a better rate here. The first things I notice are the still questionable blind play from the SB and the general overall slightly looser play. Still doesn't seem like I was 3-betting enough. I also notice that I was far less negative from the BB. But, that probably wasn't anything I was doing. It was probably just from the other plays putting less pressure on my blinds.

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1) Players at micro limits usually do not steal as much as they should. Thus, 3-bet bluffing them isn't super effective.

2) Playing loose puts you in more complicated situations, and most of your win rate comes from your big hands (JJ+, AQ+). Loosening up "in general" is bad advice. Stealing more on the button or isolating more bad limpers on the button is good advice. I wouldn't really want your VPIP to move, 14% is fine for full ring. But I'd like to see you move more of that 14% to late position, and less of it from the blinds & UTG.

Also, stop thinking about your stats. Statements like "Still doesn't seem like I was 3-betting enough" are kinda dumb. The real question you should be asking is something more along the lines of "Am I 3-betting the right hands in the right situations?" If you're worried about your 3-bet/preflop game, then post some 3-bet situations in the hand analysis forum. But trying to move your 3-bet statistic up to some "optimal level" is bound to get you into trouble. See the difference? One way of thinking is just moving your stats to some level you think they should be, which is bad. The other way of thinking is trying to improve your preflop game so that you understand all the nuances that go into making preflop decisions, and that's the good way of trying to improve.

At 10nl where he's struggling he's playing 11/7. Loosening up when IP and tightening up in the blinds should help.

Agreed.

People are not generally stealing enough and folding to blind raises enough to play back at.

Those that are often see themselves as some kind of 10NL Durrr and will refuse to fold thinking that they can do something magical post flop.

Against people who dont fold, dont put your whole stack at risk with a mediocre hand that you will often fold postflop for the sake of 1BB. You areent defending your blinds so much as putting your entire stack at risk.

I think he's playing 6 max here... in which case I think he could/should loosen up a little but like C9 said make it the BU/CO where you open up your game so you can still play at a comfortable level of looseness. You can still be quite tight in EP when playin 6 max and pretty much be tighter in the blinds then in EP.