Missed Opportunities, or Necessary Cost of Tighter Play?

It seems to happen a lot. Playing an SnG with 5-6 players left or on the bubble, and I'll get tossed something like 79o or a comparable hand. Playing tight I fold before the flop and by this point blinds are usually 20/40, more often than not I have about 960-980 chips at this point in the game. Flop drops and it's a straight draw (in this case 6,7,8,9,T rainbow) and I'm feeling like an idiot when the dude across the tables takes a decent sized pot on the river with a pair. This has happened about a half dozen or so times in the last few days, and I'm wondering if this is a play error on my part, or if it's just a resonable casualty of playing tight in the early, mid, and bubble stages of an SnG?

If your truly playing tight, you should have more than 960-980 chips at the 20/40 blind stage. I am assuming these are NL SNGs. Your M at this point is about 16, but the blinds will be coming around more often because there are fewer players.

Position is important. 79o does not hit very often. If you can limp from the button it might be worth playing it. When blinds are higher, it would be better to try and steal the blinds with the 79o. However, in most cases short handed and for 20/40 blinds its probably better to just fold the 79o and observe your opponents play.

Even 72o can win hands. Most of the time it doesn't; however, we are more likely to notice when it does win. If you try to play every hand you will be a losing player. Let it go when you would have flopped a monster but you folded trash preflop.

FYP

there is a saying in poker "don't be results oriented". 97o is a junk hand and you are correct to fold it. Just because you would of won doesn't matter. You made a correct decision to fold the hand. But what i'm concerned about is only having 900 or so chips at the low blind level. With blinds less the 50 you really should only be playing AK,AA-22 and maybe playing AQ and AJ in later position. I'd be open/raising AK,AA-TT and trying to limp w/99-22 hoping to flop a set. They only time i'd play hands like 87s or maybe even like 64s is when i'm on the button and at least 2 players have limped(i'd always fold them to a raise) in and everyone has deep stacks. The basic stategy is tight early game(low blinds) loosen up a little (mid blinds) and allin or fold (high blinds) The bubble of these things is tricky. The shorter your stack the more you want to shove allin. Bubble play is a huge subject in itself. But its basically shove/fold with 12-15BB or less.

Rags are rags, regardless if they would have won or not. If you aren't folding what would have been a winning hand now and then, you are not playing correctly. Keep folding those rags and on;t look back.

Yeah, the ending up short stacked thing is rather problematic. I'm not playing as tight as I probably SHOULD be, when the reason I'm down to 1000 chips or less when I started with 1500. I'm getting better at that now that I'm slowly developing a better understanding of what is actually a good pair of cards. Its still my first week in poker so I'm still making a lot of asinine mistakes.

Lons: What do you mean by my M? As for limping the main reason I've been folding these is because some yahoo will raise 15 or 20 chips pre-flop and 2-3 other people will call (these are play money games.)

CP: Yeah, I'm still trying to polish what hands I will and won't play in the early stages. A lot of mine study/research time recently has been centered around early stage SnG hand selection. I'm trying to improve that so I don't end up in as bad a position and have a bit more wiggle room. Coming from behind is fun, but I suppose it's not really the best way to grab a 2nd or 1st.

Let me preface this by saying I'm also on my first week, so don't take what I say too seriously.

If you have a decent hand pre-flop you don't want the whole table limping in because it increases the chance they will flop good cards and beat you. Most people aren't going to call a decent raise pre flop with 25 offsuit, but if they can limp in and flop an A34 then you're screwed.

I started out thinking exactly like you. I want to see more flops, have a more chances to play, but when you think about it, the more people in the hand, the more chances you have to lose so getting out the limpers pre-flop reduces the risk of a suck out by your competition.

Thats my take on it, as someone probably with less experience than you

"m" is the Paul Magriel. its a term used to discribe the size of your stack. it's the size of your stack / by the BB + SB + antees. so say you have 1500 in chips and the blinds are 50/100(150 total) your "m" would be 10. but for the most part i think of SNGs in terms of BBs. these SNGs isn't really about chips but equity. you can have the same amount of chips but different amonts of equity depending on the amount of players and varied stacks sizes. it's a really interseting game if your into math. do yourself a favor and download pokerstove(at pokerstove.com) its free. and also download SNGEGT it's also free it's an ICM(SNG and MTT math) calulator. you might also try the free trail of pokertracker3. PT3 will help you review your hand histories as you can filter for different things.

Smotpoker: Yeah, the more I play the more I see what you mean. I track my "flop seen" stats on Full Tilt and try to keep it between 25% and 30%. My general guideline I've set for myself is only play what I consider to be the top 20% of hands I can get or if I can play cheap/free (either by checking at the BB, or checking the small blind sometimes if I have a suit connector or something like that.) The suck out thing though is definately what's killing me. At low stakes some people will literally call almost anything. Good if you can cash in on it, but like you said, if there are four people in the showdown the odds of getting nailed increases annoyingly.

CP: Yeah, I ran across that idea on a few sites. It definitely seems like a better way of thinking about chip stack. I've seen references to ICM and the idea is very intriguing. I'll go ahead and DL those. I've been trying to approach everything from a theoretical/mathematic angle anyway. I'm trying to model all the mathematics I'm running across in Python so I can hopefully internalize them better. My brain is spinning a bit on pot odds, implied odds, etc etc.

Don't be 'results oriented'.. ie. "I should've played that hand there!!!!".. cuz the majority of the time you're hand is going to be in bad shape.

Question for ya.... why are you down to only 960chips?.. perhaps from limping in too much in Early position... or limp/calling raises preflop?? if you're dropping down to 960 or so 'more often than not'... in early levels I'm thinking you've got some HUGE leaks (to be totally honest... there are many, many, many SNG's I'll play where I'll never even consider playing a hand when blinds are still at 20/40).

Some advice for ya... (suggestion), try watching a SNG play out at a higher buyin (ie. ~$109 buyin... both reg. speed & turbo) and it'll give you a MUCH better idea of how the game should be played. In the micros you'll often see 4 & 5 players seeing a flop... lots of limping... or a raise followed by 3 or 4 callers. You just don't see this in higher buyins... usually it's a single raise will take it down... sometimes a raise then a reraise by a player in Late Pos., EP raiser might flat.. but more likely will fold or come over the top of the LP raise with a 4bet shove.
Of course you can't play the micros the same way you'd play the higher buyins (you need to adjust to the table) but they will give you a fair idea of how the game should be played (or at least how it's played by good players).
Even on the micro tables (or at least the $5 to $11 buyins) watch & see that the majority of winning, experienced players are rarely getting involved in hands in the early levels. If they do get involved, they're not taking big risks with marginal holdings when the blinds are so small. When I start a 9-plyr. SNG, it's the players who are folding every hand in the first couple levels are the ones I'm watching out for (and most often they'll be the ones who have the best ROI's and have played the most games... not always the 'most' games as there are ALOT of players who seem to choose to continually play bad in SNG's even after playing 1,000+ of them).

VP$IP (voluntarily put $ into the pot)... 25%-30% is way too high for optimal play in a SNG imo. Read that SNG Strategy Guide I pm'd you about... it has ALL you need in it to establish a good base. Seriously... start with it and then begin to add onto it.
Give you an example of why it's not necessary to play so many hands. A bit different as it was a MTT Satellite (although some similiarities as far as getting to the bubble and getting ITM are concerned)..... Top 11 of 39 got paid... I played only 4 hands the entire game and won a ticket from it. One of those 4 hands was only completing the SB with 3 limpers in ahead of me in early levels while holding ATs (only completed here in hopes of hitting a flop big... but actually c/f the nut flush draw on a KsQsQd flop with 5 to the flop). So really it was only 3 hands!!!
You don't need to play alot of hands to win a SNG. It's not important to try to win alot of hands in a SNG >>> wining a hand is in no way a shoe in to winning the game (it's about winning the war... not the battles).

If you want to ghost a SNG I'm playing you're welcome to anytime. Just pm me with a time you might be into it and I'll see if I'm playing then (or look me up on Fulltilt under DeepchapChopra and you might find me on some tables there).

READ THAT SNG Strategy Guide!!!!!!!!

cont'd... I'd say ~50% of players who play in super micro buyin SNG's don't have a clue as to what they're really doing as far as overall Strategy goes. On some sites even once you get to the $5's there will be some decent/good players. In these lower buyin SNG's, if you're familiar with decent SNG Strategy, are familiar with I.C.M. and have a good push/fold game as you're approaching the bubble, you will have a decent edge over alot of players in these. You profit off of the mistakes of others. Going out in early levels or calling off & depleting your stack in early levels, losing fold equity for when the blinds increase is just bad play.

READ THE GUIDE!!!! (then read it again, lol).

i just remembered pokertarcker3 doesnt work for play money. I think holdemmanager does but not for SNGs. It the SNGEGT I really think you'll learn the most from. Definately read the guide pokerorifice sent you and sweat him in a game if you can. As far as the brain spinning the "little green book" will help with the most basic stuff. There is a good reason people recommend that book as a first read. It was the first book I read and most everything still holds true today.

Orfice: Yeah, I've read that guide through about twice now, and it HAS helped a lot. I just jumped over to cash SnGs yesterday (I decided to leap early) and in the last three that I've played I've always ended up with 2750 or more chips by the time the first three people are eliminated. There's a marked improvement. I even managed to squeeze in to the money on my first one. I was stupid and got out in fourth on the next one though. Add in a few frustrating no limit cash games and I end up down $3.94 for the day.

Lessons learned: Play SnGs exclusively until cash game theory is better understood. And if for some reason I happen to lose a long SnG, no matter how frustrating, stay away from the cash game tables.

CP: Yeah, it doesn't. SNGEGT seems really nifty though. It's open source too so I can take it apart and tinker with the code to make my own training tools and simulations. Good stuff. Thanks for the link.

I really wish they had a reputation button for this site.

I have no idea about code. What exactly would I have to learn to be able to tinker myself. I know there are a few things I would definately like to do with this tool to make it a lot more useful to me.

99% of the time you fold a hand like 7/9o in early position you will be happy that you did! What happens if someone raises...you've just given away your chips without even seeing a flop...and to stay in the hand would be crazy! Besides ..if you start looking at these flops where does it stop? You did the right thing..forget the miracle str8 draws and play solid poker.

CP: It would be a little tricky. The whole thing is written in C# (C sharp) which is a mid-range programming language that's rough to grasp by itself without previous programming experience. If you want to see the "guts" of the program, such as the math and everything like that, you can get a free version of Microsoft's Visual Studio Express which should be able to open the source code here http://www.microsoft.com/exPress/. If you download that and then go in to the folder for the SNGEGT for instance it should let you open the files and see the source code.

Honestly I don't know enough about C# myself to understand more than half of it, I just want to see the math so I can adapt it to my own experiments in Python, which is a much simpler programming language in my admittedly limited experience.

Olddog: Yeah, but still, miracle straits can burn BAD. I had a guy on Full Tilt yesterday I was playing against in a freeroll tourney (which Scott Fischman entered in also coincidentally) he was a loose cannon, and went all in before the flop. I had a pair of queens and so I called it, hoping to double up and score a quick knock out. The goober had K9, and flopped 6-5-7-8-J, straighted from a blind all-in preflop, and knocked me out of the tourney. Talk about annoyed, meh.

Principles & strategy you will need to learn & perfect while playing SNG's is different from what you will be needing while playing cash tables.... therefore DON'T play both at this stage of your game (actually I'd personally recommend even for early intermediates to just stick with one or the other... not both!!!). I'm not going to get into the differences here... instead pick your preference and stick with it (I'd personally go with SNG's if I were you... branching into some low buyin MTT's and cheap satellites with decent payout structure (ie. 1 in 4 get paid).

There's some cheapo SNG satellites running on Fulltilt where you'll need to incorporate both SNG play and Satellite strategy for them (top places all payout the same which affects our late stage strategy & bubble play as there's nothing to be gained by having the most chips... but lots to be lost (everything) with chips lost).
There's two I can think of offhand... one is $0.20 +0.05 DailyDollarMTT satellite (not sure but I think it's Top2 win the ticket to the DailyDollar, and 3rd wins back their buyin... I could be wrong).
Another is the 'Super Satellite SNG to the DoubleDeuce' $1.80 + 0.20 Top3 all win the ticket to the Satellite MTT to the DoubleDeuce ($5). You can then 'unregister' from that Satellite MTT (don't play that $5 turbo DD sat.,... it is terrible imo) and keep the $5 as T$'s. You can then use these T$'s to play in any SNG in the lobby you want (you can use it just like your real $'s in your acc't.,... ie. you can use any amount of it... & you can also combine it with Real $'s to play a game also... so it doesn't matter if you end up with only $0.46 T$'s... you can still use that towards a buyin by adding it to cash when you're registering). Just DON'T change the T$'s (convert) over to real $'s as there's a 5% commission and it's really not worth it because the T$'s can be used like anyother dollars.... the only place you can't use them is on the cash tables... but you're NOT going to be playing on those ones anyways..... right???

GL on the tables!
I've got SNG Satellite articles too if you want.
I've actually got hundreds of SNG articles.... along with a few excellent Guides (some are 50+ pages and fairly advanced)... aside from the basic one I mentioned to you (btw.... read it again... I'll be quizzing you on it, LOL).

Is this on Cardschat? I would love to read this too.

I have been following Zach's posts on Cardschat because I am in the same boat he is in. I am in the "study" phase trying to improve my game.

Can you please explain what "ghost a SNG" means?

Agile: I think it's when one player uses Skype to watch a game you're playing in real time or vis versa. The idea is to offer a running critique, a sort of over-the-shoulder training or observation session.

Thank you Zach!

No prob.

Yea - I had to delete the links - please don't post those. (But I checked it out first and maybe I missed something but that site is awful and the 2 strategy guides I did look at were just...well awful lol). But the rest of PO's advice here is great.

There is some great discussion in this thread so carry on!

I just started Collin Moshman's book today - so far it is very good.

Ya the last programming experiance i've had was basic. well i did do a little dos after that. but who's know i might have a look anyway ty. as far as the math goes it not extremely hard. it rather simple but adds a level of complexity with each player added. i started writing an ICM calulator in excel but it got too complicated for me and i don't really know excel either.

I think you'll like it ^^

Keep in mind that all hand examples are based on 2,000 chips starting stacks. I've found sometimes I've had to mentally adjust the #'s so that it would be more familiar to me in certain situations (ie. just take 75% of all the numbers posted & it'll be equivalent to what you'd be seeing on a Pokerstars or Fulltilt table.... ie. blinds at 100/200 would translate to blinds at 75/150).