Originally Posted by Lemlywinks

Just saw this btw, and I kinda want to hear responses, so bump.

Imo, if you show pokerstars you will get more respect for hands. So i guess its kinda player dependent. If you love running bluffs then showing it may not be a bad idea.

Other thoughts?

I agree with others, that many who show their pokerstars are actually not very good. I don't give these guys any more respect (especially Platinums and SN's who shortstack at 50NL - wtf).

I think the pokerstars will intimidate the fish - I was intimidated when I first started playing online - which I don't necessarily think is a good thing. I want them to be comfortable and have fun w me, not to be intimidated. To me, this is a little like tapping the tank. And the regs know I'm putting in a fair number of hands, so no need to let them know what my status is (btw, I made platinum this month ).

Originally Posted by Jurn8

Showing VIP stars

+EV?
-EV?
Doesnt matter?

Oh btw im really bad at poker

From my experience and maybe just misguided perspective, I prefer to keep status turned off to other players. I like the lack of respect from players who arn't regs, it just suites my game better. I'm sure there are arguments for either side simply because playstyles can be so dependant on the success of this. But yeah...just my thoughts

After 18k hands at .01/.02 nl. I was able to win enough money to move up to .02/.05 nl. So far it seems to play pretty similar but am also only 3k hands in so far. Well here is my graph and stats for 6 max .01/.02 nl




I hope I can have the same sucess at .02/.05

Originally Posted by slycbnew

"Unconventional Wisdom" Season Premiere

Thanks, I remember it now.

I just got a DC membership a few weeks back so I've been watching so many videos that everything that I've seen is a vague blur. I remember now thinking that's one I want to go back to.

Originally Posted by Jurn8

Showing VIP stars

+EV?
-EV?
Doesnt matter?

Oh btw im really bad at poker

I think Rex leaves it off at cash and puts it on for tournaments where the range of opposition is wider and less regs that he knows/know him.

I'm blown away by some of the people that show it though. Saw a platinum star at my $25 table once, and another time one at my $50 who was playing with half a stack.

New topic: playing monsters BvB.

So the other day Slyce and I were at a 50nl 6max table, I cant find the HH right now cuz im on a diff computer, but basically it went like this

I get dealt KK in BB, folds around to SB (slyce) he raises to 2
I 3bet to 6, he 4bets to somewhere around 18.

I opted to shove, thinking that it was BvB and i knew villain so figured he would expect me to play back and stack lighter. In hindsight after some discussion with Slyce, should I have flatted and gotten more EV postflop.

What about other situations BvB when your playing a laggy player? Do you usually shove or play postflop and let them make greater mistakes than folding their weaker holding preflop?

BTN vs Blind? how does it change your game when your IP and OOP, more willing to flat kk IP?

Ok Delta,
BTN vs BB, here's a hand I totally butchered imo.
Villain is a fancy spewtard. 44/26/3 with a 15% 3bet.

SB: $49.50 (99 bb)
BB: $83.10 (166.2 bb)
MP1: $103.20 (206.4 bb)
MP2: $65.10 (130.2 bb)
MP3: $95.75 (191.5 bb)
CO: $52.05 (104.1 bb)
Hero (BTN): $50 (100 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with K♥ K♦
4 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB folds, BB raises to $6.50, Hero calls $4.50
Flop: ($13.25) 3♠ Q♥ 8♥ (2 players)
BB bets $11, Hero raises to $26.50, BB folds
Results:[spoil] $35.25 pot ($1.70 rake)
Hero mucked K♥ K♦ (a pair of Kings) and won $33.55 ($16.05 net)
[/spoil]

First, 4betting is still a lot better in this spot than just flatting his 3bet.
I figured that I could get more out of him postflop. Which is true to some extent. But we want to play for stacks against this fish. And 4betting gets us there faster
more of the time than taking the 3bet pot post flop and trying to let him make a mistake here.

It's basically a lot easier for him to call or shove over our 4bet incorrectly than it is for him to lose his stack post flop.

Second, on the flop, a call is probably a lot better. A lot of the times I get paranoid/scared with my monsters and play them hard. This flop is actually pretty safe for us. If he has a Q, that will just make him lose his stack faster. It's unlikely he has two hearts but if he does it's probably still better to just call his (what appears to be a strong) donk bet. And well, if he flopped a set or some other monster or sucks out, that's just variance imo.

And thirdly my raise size just sucks so much. I much prefer just shoving here than doing this weird 2.5x raise, or better yet make it $30. It looks really strong I guess and a lot of the time he'll just have air so I think calling is more +ev than raising here.

What do you think ?

I agree here you have to 4bet. You've got position, he's alot more likely to rejam if he gets fancy, and he's probably 3betting like 22-55 as bluffs and 99+for value so theres alot of set opportunities where hes closer to getting odds, especially being the agressor. Plus him flatting a 4bet oop is just terrible so you can safely jam any flop profitably I think.

As played preflop however, I completely agree, you need to flat this flop. I think even shoving or a $30 bet looks too strong and hes really only stacking like AQ, KQ, Sets, and maybe 99,1010, JJ if he thinks you can play back at him. But that depends on your image too. I know your stacking him if he has a Q in his range but i dont think thats enough of his range for it to be the most +EV situation.

I much prefer flatting flop and getting it in on non A, Q turns.

Also, whats his cbet % in 3bet pots? or do you have enough hands for that to be relatively close?

Not enough hands.

Here's the hh for the hand delta and I played...

I'd suggested to delta after the hand that he should have called my 4bet because he had position, and I'm almost certain to cbet almost any flop. I had been spewing before this hand on this table and thought he was 3betting me because of that.

After his reply, I think he was right to shove. We know each other, I know that he could be light, and some flops will kill action for him (or cause him to fold, even worse).

I also think I was wrong to fold, but I don't have stove right now to figure it out. I think enough big A's will shove here that I should have called. But at the time I didn't think 99 would shove, hence the fold, hence my desire to stove it.

--------------------
HAND #1
--------------------

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

Hero (SB): $50 (100 bb)
BB: $50 (100 bb)
UTG: $126.25 (252.5 bb)
MP: $51.50 (103 bb)
CO: $50 (100 bb)
BTN: $4 (8 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with T T
4 folds, Hero raises to $2, BB raises to $6, Hero raises to $18, BB raises to $50 and is all-in, Hero folds

Results: $36 pot
BB mucked and won $36 ($18 net)

Originally Posted by eNTy

First, 4betting is still a lot better in this spot than just flatting his 3bet.
I figured that I could get more out of him postflop. Which is true to some extent. But we want to play for stacks against this fish. And 4betting gets us there faster
more of the time than taking the 3bet pot post flop and trying to let him make a mistake here.

It's basically a lot easier for him to call or shove over our 4bet incorrectly than it is for him to lose his stack post flop.

I really like this line of thought - it really gets to the meat of what I was trying to think through in the hand delta and I played as well. Thanks!

Originally Posted by slycbnew

"Unconventional Wisdom" Season Premiere, DJ Sensei and fslexcduck, Dec. 31 2007 - on their website, it's the first video listed on the free videos tab. Really drove home for me envisioning ranges for Villains, the importance of reading boards, connecting those, and bet sizing.

Warning - I ended up playing way too many 3bet pots the last few days after watching this and spewed several stacks off - but I was frequently able to connect what they were talking about with what was happening in that hand - and I won several stacks in situations I know I would not have before watching the video.

Need to learn to choose the right vllains to pick on, still working on that, I could tell what was going on easily with some villains, with others it was much harder.

I rewatched it, and the reason that I didn't try to take too much from it was because of the "unconventional" advice they were offering. Things like floating rivers instead of turns and bluff shoving I figured were things for consideration when I 1) play 6 max instead of FR and 2) move up to levels like where they were demonstrating at 1/2. Even they're saying these are not things to do often so I figured it's better not to even consider it, yet

The reasoning behind what they do is one thing, but it often requires too much of the opponent which is beyond my typical opponent, I think.

Hey guys, first time really posting in this thread (really trying to get serious about poker).

Quick Synopsis: Right now im on AP, dropped a 25$ investment and am currently at 32$. My Sober cash game is definitely +EV, ended my most recent 30 minute session up 3bi's (yea I got hot cards).

One thing I've definitely noticed, and you really need a solid read for this, at the 2nl level is how obvious players can sometimes be with total bluffs. Obviously you only want to pay to see these bluffs with monsters.

I.E: I had Pocket Q's and board came up K-J-8 Rainbow and this donkey starts betting like crazy. Eventually puts me all in to show A-3 offsuited. Not gonna lie, I did get a little wet calling his bluff with Middle pair.

Originally Posted by NineLions

Even they're saying these are not things to do often

This is definitely key

I'm so bad at postflop play, though, that I'm taking some risks so I can learn - my winrate is flat the last several days since starting to try some of these things, but it's not killing me...

Unfortunately, I don't think I can drop down to 25NL to try some of these things, because I think the number of players this will work on at 25NL is miniscule.

I've been trying some (definitely not all) of these things on regs at 50NL who are pretty aggressive preflop (7+ 3bet %) and passive fish.

Yo Mo Fo's, Just a little update, I had my first coaching session yesterday with zach, it went well and have picked up alot of things from his session. I shall make a blog post later about the session but I think some of the things he said will definately boost my winrate and shape my image the way I want it to be. Havent played since as I was too tired yesterday but will have a long session this evening just 6 tabling or 8 tabling to try and work these new concepts into my game.

EDIT: there seems to be a fair few of us at 50nl now guys, hopefully we can all play well at the level and get some discussion going about hands etc!

Originally Posted by Falian

Hey guys, first time really posting in this thread (really trying to get serious about poker).

Quick Synopsis: Right now im on AP, dropped a 25$ investment and am currently at 32$. My Sober cash game is definitely +EV, ended my most recent 30 minute session up 3bi's (yea I got hot cards).

One thing I've definitely noticed, and you really need a solid read for this, at the 2nl level is how obvious players can sometimes be with total bluffs. Obviously you only want to pay to see these bluffs with monsters.

I.E: I had Pocket Q's and board came up K-J-8 Rainbow and this donkey starts betting like crazy. Eventually puts me all in to show A-3 offsuited. Not gonna lie, I did get a little wet calling his bluff with Middle pair.

Sounds a bit fancy for 2nl imo, just play solid poker, no need to call down bluffs with overcards showing, any Kx plays like this as well, getting put allin and calling with QQ there seems to me like you had been waiting a while for them and you weren't gonna fold them whatever came down, why make a call like that when you can catch plenty of bluffs holding the nuts or being a clear favourite at 2nl

Originally Posted by orangepeeleo

Sounds a bit fancy for 2nl imo, just play solid poker, no need to call down bluffs with overcards showing, any Kx plays like this as well, getting put allin and calling with QQ there seems to me like you had been waiting a while for them and you weren't gonna fold them whatever came down, why make a call like that when you can catch plenty of bluffs holding the nuts or being a clear favourite at 2nl

1.Opponent was an obvious maniac.
2. I had been observing him for at least an hour and he never overbet the pot even with nuts, and all of a sudden he's firing off huge bets.
3. The speed at which he was betting was extremely unusual. It was obvious he wasn't wanting me to play back at all.

This is a hand I would have easily tossed away to any player that was either new to the player or I gave at least an ounce of respect. I placed him on a complete bluff and I was right.

And my only response to you assuming that I got to attached to the QQ's is that I 6-table so I'm seeing good hands on the reg and its honestly not hard for me to fold at all when necessary.

Originally Posted by Falian

Obviously you only want to pay to see these bluffs with monsters.

You class queens as a 'monster' there?? If you had that good a read then fair one, and i don't know what stack sizes were etc but all i was saying was that there's no need to stack off there when you can pick and choose spots where you know for a stone cold fact, no doubt about it, no soul reads needed, that you've got about 80%+ equity in a hand.

Hey was wondering if anybody know if there is a free version of the AHK script i know of table ninja but i honestly dont want to pay for it so is there a free version of something similar. So if u know anything please let me kno thanks.

Originally Posted by aesopdurasic

Hey was wondering if anybody know if there is a free version of the AHK script i know of table ninja but i honestly dont want to pay for it so is there a free version of something similar. So if u know anything please let me kno thanks.

You could download a number of AHK scripts that do the same things..
Here: http://www.overcards.com/wiki/moin.cgi/AutoHotKey

Originally Posted by eNTy

You could download a number of AHK scripts that do the same things..
Here: http://www.overcards.com/wiki/moin.cgi/AutoHotKey

Hey thanks enty i will check that out right now thanks again.

Brag: Moving up to 5nl today!
Brag: Shot even par on 18 for the first time evar!
Beat: ... ?

Life's good, no?

Originally Posted by Lemlywinks

Brag: Moving up to 5nl today!
Brag: Shot even par on 18 for the first time evar!
Beat: ... ?

Life's good, no?

Very nice, from the tips?

<--Played for SUNY Cortland the last 2 years, haha best i've ever shot however is +3 for 18 . Grats on the sick round

Oh ya and that poker stuff grats on moving up to 5NL

Originally Posted by Caseace48

Very nice, from the tips?

<--Played for SUNY Cortland the last 2 years, haha best i've ever shot however is +3 for 18 . Grats on the sick round

Oh ya and that poker stuff grats on moving up to 5NL

Grací. Yea it was the tips and I was pumped. Only downside was I was -2 with 2 to play... bogey bogey finish

However, I'll take the E gladly

Originally Posted by Lemlywinks

Grací. Yea it was the tips and I was pumped. Only downside was I was -2 with 2 to play... bogey bogey finish

However, I'll take the E gladly

Absolutely

Brag: 14.5BB/100 to start my first 3.5k hands at 25NL. Always nice to move up a limit on a heater

hey all i'm currently at 2nl. having trouble posting graphs now dont know why. but i did have a question there was some one at my table telling me how much i was up does anyone know the website he was using? also whats a good vpip%/pfr% at this level FR? i'm at around 8BB/100 but that does include one horrific tilting session since then i'm at 18BB/100. ill figure this posting thing out and let you all see the charts.

OPR or online poker rankings. But they track exclusively MTTs for Stars and only MTTs and SNGs for Tilt.

Unless you play 50nl or have played a good bit of it before, he wouldn't be able to tell your ring game stats I don't think even with tablerankings... is this correct?

Originally Posted by Lemlywinks

OPR or online poker rankings. But they track exclusively MTTs for Stars and only MTTs and SNGs for Tilt.

Unless you play 50nl or have played a good bit of it before, he wouldn't be able to tell your ring game stats I don't think even with tablerankings... is this correct?

ok i think it was tablepokerratings.com i just signed up for rakebackpros and want to switch now oh well. here's my graph. i got to learn this paint thing better to be able to put more than one picture on at once. i did before but i wont let me now.

Originally Posted by Lemlywinks

Brag: Moving up to 5nl today!
Brag: Shot even par on 18 for the first time evar!
Beat: ... ?

Life's good, no?

Congrats, I'm at like $80 so only another 15 or 16 BI's left for me and i'll be there too, for 3 BI's worth of 5nl at least lol

We were on the same table for a bit yesterday, i didnt really notice until i won a pot from you lol i pushed you off with an underpair to the board fwiw, you raised, i done a bit of setmining out of position, board came paired and all low so i donked into you and you folded It felt good and now you cant get your revenge until i move up mwahahaha

You've got some tight stats though man, tight as in good not nit like, i think i'm going for the more tight passive style at 2nl, i like limping on the button with a lot of sc's, 1 gappers, purely b/c cbets get called loads at 2nl so its not worth raising but the implied odds are just huge with hands like that so i cant fold them either lol.

Originally Posted by Lemlywinks

Brag: Moving up to 5nl today!
Brag: Shot even par on 18 for the first time evar!
Beat: ... ?

Life's good, no?

Go to http://www.10thgreen.com and accept leatherass' million dollar challenge, imo.

Originally Posted by Lemlywinks

OPR or online poker rankings. But they track exclusively MTTs for Stars and only MTTs and SNGs for Tilt.

Unless you play 50nl or have played a good bit of it before, he wouldn't be able to tell your ring game stats I don't think even with tablerankings... is this correct?

There is some giant online table watching database that does even the tiniest stakes.

I'm pretty sure they sell their data to poker-edge among others. Could be even PTR gets their data from them...

Seems like it's marketwatch or marketpulse or something.

Ill see if I can remember it... its one of those you send .03 to to opt in.

Originally Posted by cAPSLOCK

There is some giant online table watching database that does even the tiniest stakes.

I'm pretty sure they sell their data to poker-edge among others. Could be even PTR gets their data from them...

Seems like it's marketwatch or marketpulse or something.

Ill see if I can remember it... its one of those you send .03 to to opt in.

i just read some stuff about pokertablerankings and it seems like one of these data miners word at 2+2 is its a banned site. i did a few seaches hope i didnt do anything bad!!! didnt get any hand hitories just winrate etc.

Originally Posted by cardplayer52

hey all i'm currently at 2nl. having trouble posting graphs now dont know why. but i did have a question there was some one at my table telling me how much i was up does anyone know the website he was using? also whats a good vpip%/pfr% at this level FR? i'm at around 8BB/100 but that does include one horrific tilting session since then i'm at 18BB/100. ill figure this posting thing out and let you all see the charts.

Its PTR (pokertableratings) if you are on Full Tilt.

A good vpip and pfr for up to 25nl would be to just play solid TAG ABC poker which is very successful at the micros and you dont need to do anything tricky or make any fancy plays.

I would say 14/10/2 would be fine for the micro's IMO

Originally Posted by cardplayer52

i just read some stuff about pokertablerankings and it seems like one of these data miners word at 2+2 is its a banned site. i did a few seaches hope i didnt do anything bad!!! didnt get any hand hitories just winrate etc.

its forbidden when pokerstars or tilt is open and running but they wont know you are using it if they are closed, loads of people use it. I think they wouldnt do anything anyway if they knew you were using it I remember zach or belgo saying something about it before but I cant fully remember

Originally Posted by Jurn8

its forbidden when pokerstars or tilt is open and running but they wont know you are using it if they are closed, loads of people use it. I think they wouldnt do anything anyway if they knew you were using it I remember zach or belgo saying something about it before but I cant fully remember

Stars said they would not bother players about that. Even for buying hand histories, actually. But that they would take steps to make datamining a lot harder for those sites.

Tilt has kind of the opposite approach. They say they want to restrict the ability to datamine but they're not really doing anything about it practically. And they do go after players who use PTR while playing (offline is fine).