Limp or raise?

Sorry that this is such a basic question, but when I see a long row of limpers my urge to conform is so strong that I tend to limp, whereas in some situations I feel as if an aggressive bet is needed to clear out people that might suck out on me if they stay in the pot.

In the example shown in the screenshot, presumably a big raise is called for? Or maybe I should stop worrying about what cards I have and just concentrate on the players...

Attached Images

CClimpORfold.JPG (55.3 KB, 103 views)

In a deepstack cash game, I would say just limp, hit your set, brick the turn and river and scoop, (or don't and fold to severe action)

In a tournie with such a small stack, it's quite borderline, I think either shove or limp, if you raise and get called, you are hoping for a set or small board, which isn't going to happen often.

If you raise and get 3bet, what are you going to do ?

With a shove I think you can pick up the money in the pot, the limpers don't have TT+, not sure how the players behind you will react but they will fold a lot.

Sorry I should have said that I'm a tourney player. Thanks for the input.

In a deepstack cash game you need to raise 100% of the time. It's really really hard to win stacks in a limped pot, so start building preflop. Also it makes it a lot easier to win without hitting a set.

In the hand you post I probably just make it 300, call if shoved on. If called, shove any flop.

No that's fine I saw that just giving my cash player opinion.

I'm trying to get into tournament play as well, this is a situation I have trouble with some times. I mean 10-12BB it's a shove, and 20-24BB it's a limp or a raise, very difficult to know what to do in between.

I'm looking forward to having a good tournament player's opinion.

Edit : WVH : now that you say it yeah it's actually a definite raise in a cash game, too many players can also get us in trouble on a wet board

Should I be thinking in terms of BB? I tend to think in terms of M, in the example given I had an M of 11 and I have it showing to the left of username in the HUD.

Limp man.. there's caller's beside you.. especially when people in the table tends to limp, it's difficult to judge..and the flop might not help you.. maybe raise when you get 10 10 s up ..goodluck

Sorry I don't really know.

I understand M in theory (I think) but don't really apply it yet . But isn't that based on the opponents stack size ? Not too sure that is relevant here

Maybe, but then presumably anybody with a picture card can flop a pair and I will be screwed.

In this hand you are getting the applied adds to limp and try to hit your set. You do not want to raise because you want to hit your set and get a bigger pay off from all the limpers.
I think in BB as this is the way I was thought. I think if M works for you use it. It is just like all the different HUDS it is what ever suits the player.

Maybe I am a bit too obsessed with M at the moment, but I am doing a Full Tilt Challenge involving M which has been stuck at 80% completed for over a week now, whereas all the other challenges I have completed in well under a day

I put M in a prominent position in my HUD because that's what I'm mainly using at the moment, rather than BBs.

you can actually raise also 3 times the blind...even though there's a set of limpers... Full tilt shuffling is really unpredictable.. anything can happen..
so do the standard reraise ..or maybe limp if you don't wanna take the risk and go for the sure win but small gain

I find what works for me is I limp and see if anyone else raises, if they do raise I try to judge on the raise and the person but if the raise is something like 3 - 5 x BB I will usually call as long as there are no re raises, but there again I have to judge the size and players in the pot, same if someone goes all in it tends to be a judgement call, if I think there are a few players with A x then I may call, also depending on my position and where the tournament is at is part of my decesion. so my answer is limp and see.

My belief is to raise here. Your going to have no idea what anyone has post flop if you just limp. You have good position and can make a play if you hit your set or c bet a strong board if callers check to you post flop.

Of course this is also dependent on what your table image is and how well you know the players and what ranges you have them on.

Raise 3bb+1bb for every limper - that's where the 300 suggested come from.

I agree with the call the preflop shove option (especially if from the ss).

I'm not sure whether I'd call a donk-shove from the sb/bb if the flop contains face cards and they cold called your preflop raise, though.

If I read your HUD stats properly you're sitting with a bunch of calling stations - you need to weed a few out before the flop.

Shoving isn't that bad either imo - being the 2nd shortstack opponents could be assuming that you're stealing here and call (with quite wide ranges).

I refuse to read the thread, but the answer is pretty much always raise.

Wired 9's never lose, Shove!! Just kidding, but German Virgins are very good to me!

If you're too lazy to read the whole thread, perhaps you could manage to look at the image in the OP before blessing us with your infinite wisdom. Not a lot to ask.

You have to raise in that position and represent a strong hand. You limp in and you are opening yourself up for a disaster

Guess what, I still think its a raise.

Edit:

Shat, this is learning poker so I'm not supposed to be an ass...

Typically when players limp preflop, they have speculative hands that require lots of money behind in order to be profitable. By raising, you accomplish several goals:

1) You screw up the SPR so that they cannot profitably play fit or fold on the flop.
2) You put in more money while ahead.
3) You set yourself up to have a very profitable c-bet.
4) Players will likely check to you on the flop, so when you want a free turn you often get one.

Run a filter in HEM and check out your win rate when you c-bet the flop in position against a limper. Its insane how high it is.

Also, when you limp a hand like 99, the types of hands others are limping usually have pretty good equity against a set (suited connectors, suited baby aces, ect.). So when you flop something like 953, the guy with 76s is actually putting you in a pretty RIO spot. You're going to win a small pot when he misses and get stacked when he hits on the turn. People are much less likely to stack off with top pair/over pair in a limped pot, and they're playing hands that don't often make top pair or over pairs. And that's generally the hand you're looking to stack off against when you have a set.

The moral of this story: punish limpers whenever possible.

Sorry for being a dick in my first couple of posts, forgot where I was posting.

I agree. With a higher M I'd maybe limp and hope to hit a set, but at around 10 any playable hand is a raising hand.

I thought calling if shoved preflop could be trickier. We'd be getting around 2:1 odds so we'd be getting the odds to call against most people's ranges. But the Hero has a very tight image, not everyone would be thinking he was adjusting to his M, so could the villain be 3bet shoving with AJs, AQo or worse? Probably, but depends on the player. But even if he only raised with AA-TT, AK and AQs, the hero would still be getting even odds to call. The fold would only be correct against the tightest of players (someone who could only be shoving there with an overpair or AKs).

I should hope so!

I would shove here. 20% increase on our stack if everyone folds.
Agressive play is more profitable than passive play.
The reason for this is simple. When you are the agressor you have fold equity and show down value. When you are the passive caller you have no fold equity.

This confuses me - if you are all in, how can you have any sort of equity? Surely your fate is completely in the hands of the other players, and the cards...

99 in the CO you can raise it even with limpers in it.
Limping is just bad in this spot, like it was said, we are giving them free cards to hit a higher card, or 2 pair.
The all in would only be if we are going to be short stacked by making the raise.

I have a super player that has been guiding me and being a junior player, I am yet to understand what it means. I hear BB, SB, position, etc. over and over. Maybe eventually I'll pick up on it. My problem is 72 years old and trying to play my hand and figure out what others are doing just doesn't cut it. My fast thinking has come and gone. I've won hands and not know how. Since I don't know what hole cards the others have, I play what I have in front of me to best I can. As far as the 99 hole cards you were replying to, I usually limp in to get a flop for a set. Don't happen often. If the flop is trash and I don't get my set, then based on bets around the table I usually raise a little. Have the good day and good luck on the felts.

You got 17BBs with a hand like 99 I think you can justify an open shove. With 2 limpers I think you should be shoving alot wider than 99 here. If you raise here you definatly commit yourself to the pot with the 1st limper and maybe commit to the pot period. I don't think in terms of "M" as I play STTs but think anything less than 20"M" and your not looking at any type of post flop play. And fold equity means the amount you gain by having someone fold a hand that had a good chance of beating you. eg one of the blinds may fold a hand like JTo that has ~50% equity vs your 99, so by shoving you gain that equity everytime he fold what could of been a winning hand.

If everyone folds you win the pot uncontested.
This is called fold equity.
If someone calls we can win the pot in a showdown. This is called showdown equity.
In this particular hand we will be happy with just picking up the pot right here, uncontested, if everyone folds.
And at the same time our hand is strong enough to have decent showdown value vs hands that might call us.

OK, thanks for the clarification. My main reason for preferring a shove here is that 99 will often flop a higher card, but a shove will hopefully push out a lot of people that might hit something better on the flop.

Shove > Limp > Raise

Figures the 'cash game' players are suggesting to raise here... I say this a bad play... there's 20% of your stack out there on the table... just put the pile in. If you get called by LP or blinds you might be flipping which is obviously okay (if they're ahead... oh well).

What hand would call a raise to 300 that wouldn't call a shove? I don't think you gain that much fold equity to make it up for the extra chips you're risking. If you raise to 5BB, you can still get away with an M of 8 if you see a 3bet and a 4 bet behind you.

I'm not saying shoving isn't a positive equity play, but with an M of 11 I'd still prefer the raise.

hmm i feel like it's still early and with lots of players I would rather limp in that situation and try to hit the set. i feel like there are some potential dangerous limpers such as JJ-AA and any overcard beats a pair of 9s. but if i felt the table was soft and i could steal it preflop with a strong raise, that would be a strong 1b option for me.

No way. Open limping with aces is a nice play when you're deep, are in early position (at least 7 players yet to act behind you) and someone in late position or the blinds is aggressive and likely to attack the blinds with a big raise to which you'd then come over the top. Here the first limper has an M of 10 and is in a very loose-passive table (I'm assuming the second value in the HUD is the preflop raise %), open limping is just going to create a chain of limpers and he'd find himself going to the flop with 3 or 4 other players. And you wouldn't make this play with JJ-KK.
Besides, the first limper is a fish himself, so we couldn't give him credit for trying this play. He could, though, be the type of fish that would simply never raise preflop, so in that sense he could have an overpair... but those would just be like 5% of the hands he could have there so...

I didn't talk about the second limper because the key one is always the first one, the other who come along usually have speculative hands, the second limper would have raised for sure with AA-JJ.

You have to shut the limpers out and try and take the pot immediately.Nines are too weak to withstand multiple limpers.Raise all-in!

Correct.