KK all in?

#1 22nd January 2009, 9:21 AM

Okay chip stacks were $17k (him) me (7k) play money game. He seemed very aggressive during the time I played with him. He goes all in from early position and I call with KK from small blind. He shows AQo and draws a queen on the turn and an ace on the river. I was just wondering if it was correct of me to call since it's a cash game and not a tourney?

sorry meant to post this in Learning Poker.

#2 22nd January 2009, 9:38 AM

If you thought he was "aggressive" then yes. I mean the only hand that had you dominated was AA, assuming that this was HU?

#3 22nd January 2009, 9:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regd87

If you thought he was "aggressive" then yes. I mean the only hand that had you dominated was AA, assuming that this was HU?

yeah it was heads up thank you

#4 22nd January 2009, 10:15 AM

so heads up againts and aggressive player, pocket KK you have and you are facing an all in ... dream situation. except for the bad beat of course, this was played how it was supposed to, never fold KK in this format. its just the rule

#5 22nd January 2009, 10:34 AM

Moved to Learning Poker.

#6 22nd January 2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onbrkenwings

Okay chip stacks were $17k (him) me (7k) play money game. He seemed very aggressive during the time I played with him. He goes all in from early position and I call with KK from small blind. He shows AQo and draws a queen on the turn and an ace on the river. I was just wondering if it was correct of me to call since it's a cash game and not a tourney?

sorry meant to post this in Learning Poker.

You made the right play.
As quoted from HOH vol.1 "About one time in 24, when you hold kings at a full table, someone at the table will be holding aces."
In other words there is only a 4% chance someone is holding aces.

#7 22nd January 2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinedown.45

You made the right play.
As quoted from HOH vol.1 "About one time in 24, when you hold kings at a full table, someone at the table will be holding aces."
In other words there is only a 4% chance someone is holding aces.

But that doesn't mean you are going to be up against AA 4% out of the time someone pushes all-in preflop. People don't push with any two cards. (I realize you know this, shinedown, just pointing out.) That's why regd87 said about the villain being aggressive. You have to take him into account to figure out his range of hands that he would push preflop.

#8 22nd January 2009, 4:39 PM

for me KK against an aggresive player with more than twice my stack is all in everytime

#9 22nd January 2009, 5:00 PM

yea i think you made the right play like everyone else said above, just got unlucky nothing u can do about that.

#10 22nd January 2009, 5:02 PM

it was play money, guy coulda been pushing with literally ATC, save 50 bucks up n make a deposit man, the only good thing about play money is that if u have absolutely NO idea at all about poker u can learn hand rankings and the rounds of betting, without risking any money or pride..... carry on playing with play money when u know about all that and ur pride is at stake lol i mean, i know we're in the middle of a recession n all that but anyone thats not living on the streets can scrape together $50 surely.

#11 22nd January 2009, 10:18 PM

if the blinds are .01/.02 cents i fold. anything bigger than than i call =)

#12 22nd January 2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangepeeleo

it was play money, guy coulda been pushing with literally ATC, save 50 bucks up n make a deposit man, the only good thing about play money is that if u have absolutely NO idea at all about poker u can learn hand rankings and the rounds of betting, without risking any money or pride..... carry on playing with play money when u know about all that and ur pride is at stake lol i mean, i know we're in the middle of a recession n all that but anyone thats not living on the streets can scrape together $50 surely.

His sig line does say he has about 1 month playing poker (started 12/08). Good question from someone interested in learning.

There are lots of folks, me included, who will not deposit online and the reasons vary widely. Would not 'knock' anyone for not wanting to lose their $50 cash - and subsequent reloads.

Pride at stake? Building BR's at 5 different sites from -$0- deposits hasn't hurt my pride one bit ...

#13 22nd January 2009, 11:41 PM

i'm not so sure i agree with orangepeeleo either. i understand that play money isn't very worthwhile, but at the really high levels they play isn't nearly as bad, and there is always the 500k freeroll... i just think that you need to be able to win at play money before you even think about depositing.

as for the kings situation. i would call with kings every single time heads up, and still about 95% of the time in any other situation. so yeah, good call.

#14 22nd January 2009, 11:45 PM

I believe that under the circumstances you provided, your all-in call was right. In a regular cash game with good players involved it may not have been as good of a call. Live and learn though, you only lost play money and learned KK isn't invincible.

#15 27th January 2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nevadanick

His sig line does say he has about 1 month playing poker (started 12/08). Good question from someone interested in learning.

There are lots of folks, me included, who will not deposit online and the reasons vary widely. Would not 'knock' anyone for not wanting to lose their $50 cash - and subsequent reloads.

Pride at stake? Building BR's at 5 different sites from -$0- deposits hasn't hurt my pride one bit ...

Yeah maybe not everyone wants to make a deposit for many different reasons but like i said, it's not hard to get together $50, and if you stick to a good bankroll strategy you should never have to deposit again, if you do lose it and you were sticking to a sensible roll management then you really should give up poker anyways imo because you have to be a really bad player to lose $50 if u stick to say chris fergusons BR strategy.

My main issue is that with play money its very hard to teach yourself bankroll management and good discipline, which are pretty much the 2 most important things in the game i think.

I put $50 in my cousins account about 4 months ago, put some post-its on his laptop screen telling him what limits he could play at and let him crack on, he's built it up to $80 i think at the minute and he's just a 16yr old kid (i've already told him i want a cut if he ever cashes in a big tournament lol)

Congrats on building from 0$ on all those sites, definetly something i couldnt do, i'm notoriusly tight with my cash so the best way for me to learn is to have some amount of real money at stake, don't get me wrong i'm not a high roller (altho i WILL be one day lol) but losing a $2.25 sng because of a mistake on my part hurts me just as much as losing the 100 euro tournies i enter at the local casino every payday

#16 27th January 2009, 12:33 PM

Apologies, I didnt notice his sig line either but having played for nearly 2 months now he surely has a grasp of hand rankings and the betting rounds, thats what i was saying in my original post, that play money is only good for learning the game in its most basic form, once you have something at stake you have something to lose and you should naturally pay more attention to how your playing?? just my opinion

#17 27th January 2009, 1:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinedown.45

You made the right play.
As quoted from HOH vol.1 "About one time in 24, when you hold kings at a full table, someone at the table will be holding aces."
In other words there is only a 4% chance someone is holding aces.

Harrington has made a change to this rules, btw. It now states...

"About one time in 24, when you hold kings at a full table, someone at the table will be holding aces, unless Ronaldadio is in the pot. If he is and he is holding KK, about one time in 2 someone will hold AA."
It continues...
"If, however, Ronaldadio is the one holding AA and u hold KK, u r about a 1:5 underdog normally. Against Ronaldadio holding AA your KK is now in a coinflip preflop."

#18 27th January 2009, 11:27 PM

In my opinion that depends on your position on the table, your stacks but for the majority of the cases i go all in as well

#19 28th January 2009, 1:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roy_indenso

In my opinion that depends on your position on the table, your stacks but for the majority of the cases i go all in as well

he said it happened in a heads up table, so i think he did the right move, but bad luck can be fatal

#20 28th January 2009, 3:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onbrkenwings

Okay chip stacks were $17k (him) me (7k) play money game. He seemed very aggressive during the time I played with him. He goes all in from early position and I call with KK from small blind. He shows AQo and draws a queen on the turn and an ace on the river. I was just wondering if it was correct of me to call since it's a cash game and not a tourney?

sorry meant to post this in Learning Poker.

All-In every time with your chip situation. You raise, then most likely he pushes.

#21 28th January 2009, 5:21 PM

so pocket kk as a starting hand is a great hand no matter what . i like to play agressive but sometimes play it slow and hope the flop comes in your favor. you just got rigged lol

#22 31st January 2009, 11:59 AM

only allin.. with this stacks) but this's poker, A may come anywhen)

#23 31st January 2009, 12:37 PM

Kk is a very good hand but all depends what comes on the board mite even be a bad beat

#24 31st January 2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schnozzinkobenstein

But that doesn't mean you are going to be up against AA 4% out of the time someone pushes all-in preflop. People don't push with any two cards. (I realize you know this, shinedown, just pointing out.) That's why regd87 said about the villain being aggressive. You have to take him into account to figure out his range of hands that he would push preflop.

Yes I do know this but against an aggressive player, your kings have a much better chance against an aggressive player than against a tight player as an aggressive players range is much wider and therefore KK has a much better chance of holding up unless an ace falls on the flop

#25 31st January 2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onbrkenwings

Okay chip stacks were $17k (him) me (7k) play money game. He seemed very aggressive during the time I played with him. He goes all in from early position and I call with KK from small blind. He shows AQo and draws a queen on the turn and an ace on the river. I was just wondering if it was correct of me to call since it's a cash game and not a tourney?

sorry meant to post this in Learning Poker.

I would call that hand 10 out of 10 times against an agressive player, He probably has a hand like 10-10, J-J, QQ, KK(not so likely since You have it too)AA,AK A-Q maybe even A-J. Which meanes that youre ahead in something like 85 % of the time and probably more. Easy call.

#26 31st January 2009, 1:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasduce

I would call that hand 10 out of 10 times against an agressive player, He probably has a hand like 10-10, J-J, QQ, KK(not so likely since You have it too)AA,AK A-Q maybe even A-J. Which meanes that youre ahead in something like 85 % of the time and probably more. Easy call.

Exactly, 9 times out of 10 your against a strong ace or a lower PP facing an aggressive player, therefore you should never fold KK at any time unless you have a solid read on villian.

#27 31st January 2009, 1:25 PM

this article is about KK
but it depends on your condition where you play?

Quote:

Should you ever fold KK preflop?

Recently, there seems to be a rash of discussion questioning whether it is ever correct to fold KK preflop. The answer is OF COURSE IT IS, just not very often. When people ask about folding KK preflop, the argument is often centered around “knowing” that your opponent has AA. I would say that folding KK preflop for fear of your opponent having AA is just not something that is wise to do. There is far too likely a chance that he is holding AK, QQ, JJ or some other hand that people like to push hard preflop. Another reason people use to justify folding KK preflop might be based on the number of people in the pot.

For example, if the UTG player moves all-in for 9BB. The player in seat 4 moves all-in over the top and the cutoff also calls/moves all-in. People now fear playing their KK not only because of the increased chance of AA, but also the concern about playing KK 4-handed. This is where you need to take some pot odds into account. Assume you have KK, the UTG player has AK, the 4th position player has JJ/QQ and the Button is calling with 8-9 suited because he has a huge stack and is getting nearly 3-to1. Your KK is only 43% favorite. But you're getting far beyond the odds, over 3-to-1, needed to take that shot. Give two players an ace (taking away one of the outs to beat you) and your chances improve to better than 50%! So even 4-handed in that situation you probably should call.

The largest chance of finding a correct spot to laydown KK preflop is in a satellite tourney or in a tourney with a very flat payout structure. In these tourneys, there is much more emphasis put on simply surviving over chip accumulation. In a normal tourney, most of the prize pool is divided among the top 3-5 spots. So if 20 people get paid, you still have 15 people to go before you really make any money. This makes it necessary to take far greater risks, because your goal is to win the tournament. With a satellite, all 20 players get the same prize, so your goal is simply to make it to the top 20, not win the tourney. For example, you are playing for a WSOP ME seat in one of the PokerStars $650 qualifiers. There are 9 people left and 6 people get seats. The blinds are 5,000/10,000 and you have $324,000 chips. An early position player moves all-in and a middle position player calls (assume they both have approx. the same chipstack). In this instance, I probably fold KK preflop. It is far more important to have a player eliminated than it is for you to pick up more chips. With $324k, it is likely that you can simply fold your way to a WSOP seat, so why risk being crippled?

Hopefully this has helped illustrate when it might be the right time to fold KK preflop and when you might be forced to call. Once thing this article cannot account for however, is intuition. Sometimes, especially when you have logged a lot of time player a specific player, you just feel like something is off. You don’t know what it is about the hand, but something just “feels” like you are beat. In this case, especially if you have only put in a few chips so far, its ok to fold. But if you do, don’t come to a poker forum and ask “is this fold ok?” because the answer is going to be “no.” The only one who can know whether the fold was correct or not…is you. For you stat guys, I will finish up this article with my estimation of how often you should fold KK preflop: 1%-2%.

#28 31st January 2009, 5:35 PM

in this situation...call, call, call. Got unlucky but odds are you will dodge it more often than not. Never folding KK here.

#29 1st February 2009, 2:52 AM

Of course it is the right play you just got unlucky, KK vs. AQo is about 72% 28% preflop

#30 4th February 2009, 7:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onbrkenwings

Okay chip stacks were $17k (him) me (7k) play money game. He seemed very aggressive during the time I played with him. He goes all in from early position and I call with KK from small blind. He shows AQo and draws a queen on the turn and an ace on the river. I was just wondering if it was correct of me to call since it's a cash game and not a tourney?

sorry meant to post this in Learning Poker.

Is this cash or play money? You started out saying it's play money and then you ended it with " it's a cash " game. Assuming that this was play money, you just ran into an i dont care aggressor, " since i have more chips than you and I have an ace I will just go all-in " this mentality would be very common since well its play money and he has no true investment in these chips. In this case you're call with pocket KK is correct. Poker Gods just didnt let you have it.

#31 4th February 2009, 8:33 AM

I would have done the same with KK..hard to wait on AA, you did right..well always a risk that KK got beat by AQ or other 2 pairs, sh.. happens

#32 4th February 2009, 8:49 AM

I think you made the right move by calling with KK. Cards like KK seldom comes and it is consider as a monster cards. So don"t be upset if youre KK was beaten by AQ, it's just part of the game. Good luck to your next game and I"m sure thar your KK will not be beaten the next time.

#33 4th February 2009, 12:51 PM

you made the right play no matter how aggresive your opponet is..in heads up kk is a almost 100 percent dominating hand which you should get as much chips as you can on the table before the flop..the turn and the river are over your control

#34 4th February 2009, 9:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onbrkenwings

Okay chip stacks were $17k (him) me (7k) play money game. He seemed very aggressive during the time I played with him. He goes all in from early position and I call with KK from small blind. He shows AQo and draws a queen on the turn and an ace on the river. I was just wondering if it was correct of me to call since it's a cash game and not a tourney?

sorry meant to post this in Learning Poker.

A hand liek AQ AK is hard for any player to let go, ussually in a cash game its a really good hand, but then again so is KK. I think u made the right descision to call, but with a lower chip stack, maybe should have played it cautiously.

#35 31st March 2009, 1:41 AM

yes, it was the right decision. KK is the 2nd best starting hand, and against an aggressive player the odds are even better of you having him beat badly. You just happened to catch an unlucky break. Continue doing what you did, in the long run you will win much more of the times than you lose.

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