Implied odds before the turn??

Ok I understand what implied odds are.

But I just canno figure out how to use the concept pre - turn.

In my minds eye, an implied odds decision can only be made on a very strong hand.. trips (maybe) a nut straight and say the second nut flush.

This is because im betting without sufficient pot odds, if I hit my hand I have to bet out on the river regardless of scare cards.. so for me to use implied odds, there cannot be scare cards.

Now the only exeption to this is say a small pair - preflop, ill limp (or even call occasionally) provided I think the guy will stack off if I hit trips (im looking for 10:1 odds on the cost of limping / calling to do this) so I need to be deepstacked.

So how do you guys figure to use (with any degree of accuracy) implied odds before the turn?

Second .. for those who do.. is it more of a tournament thing or a cash game thing? because with the trips.. I dont play many cash games but im not so sure you can reliably count on 10:1 odds in a cash game. Am I correct with this assumption?


Thanks as always guys

Implied odds exist through out the hand. For example you understand set mining is basically a implied odds play right? Implied odds merely refers to the addiditonal amount of money you can win from a second best hand. That is why set mining is so golden. Players spew implied odds with big pairs because the so often continue to put money in the pot behind.

This is also why flushes are typically low implied odds (I say typically I know some people will still pay them off no matter what). Flushes are very obvious when they hit so a smart player if they are able to put you on a flush draw will not put much more money into the pot when the scare card comes.

Having read No Limit Theory and Practice I will use the hand he used to illistrate implied odds.

Let us say that we know that villian has AsAc, how we know is not relevant but we KNOW it. Now this is 10/20 cash game with 5000 stacks and you have JdJh. Now if the villian shoves all his money in preflop or raises to 1000k you should fold. But if the villian only makes a small raise say 100, then you should call. For the example assume it will be heads up no one else will call. It is profitable to call here becase there is so much money behind that you are trading a small preflop mistake (Calling with the worst hand preflop) in the hopes that you can make your opponent make an even bigger mistake post flop (calling an even bigger bet or bets with worse hand). It is reasonable to assume that the villian will at least bet the flop no matter (Implied odds), and possibly even call a raise from if you if you hit your set or shove over the top.

I hope this helps, if not someone will be along that can.

yes I understand set mining, but with the above example (im not trying to nit pick.. im just saying trying to get a discussion going in the hope of gettine a eurica moment!!)

In the above example the vilan raises to 100, with blinds of 10/20 its only a 5xbb raise. Against a loose player, most would play JJ (especially with position).

In this situation we are both deep stacked so its a standard play. If I hit then yes I can expect to get paid off and if not I fold.

BUT

would you consider playing them beond the flop? the odds of hitting by the river are just under 11:1.

So if he slow playes his aces you are likely to get odds of more than 11:1 assuming he bets small and you go all in at the end.

but this dosnt take into consideration the cost of calling is small bets.

say he raises by 100 each round, flop and turn (obviously you will not bet river if you dont hit)

so the cost of going beond flop is 200 to win a pot of 600 so 3:1

now say the raise is 200 the cost becomes 400 to win a pot of 1000 and the pot odds are 2.5:1

so the bigger the post flop raise the more you rely on implied odds rather than pot odds (because they are decreasing as the raise increases)

So we are relying on implied odds here.

Now to get my 11:1 after the flop, first I must hit and we will assume I do it on the river.

I call a $100 on the flop,
I call $100 on the turn

I hit on the river

Opponent again raises $100

pot =$900
(my total investment so far is 200) {its actually higher if I include the preflop action, but it was on the flop that I decided to use implied odds so i ca ignore the preflop call}

so I have to get 11:1 on the 200 (as i waas working from implied odds and therefore had to estimate the cost of calling all rounds until the river)

so pot has to be 2200 which means I have to raise 1300 on the river to get paid off.

I just cant see people paying that off with no cards to come.

So my thinking is that you can only use implied odds with 1 round to come.

Playing beyond the flop becomes more than just a implied odds question but to answer your question as long as the implied odds justify it yes I will and have.

example

2nl

I have pocket 5's and 3.00 stack, villian has AA and 4.50 stack, so we are playing for 150bb at .01/.02

preflop villian raises to .20, I call blinds fold, there is .43 in the pot, with 2.80 behind. Villian bets out .20 on the flop ( a likely bet amount). Now I am risking .20/2.6 (remaining stack)= 13/1 you are still getting odds, I also realize there is the pot in addition to the remaing stacks but I am lazy and didn't want to do all the math here . if you think you can get his stack. Most of the time I can get his stack here but it does get harder to get all the money in without big raises early in the hand.

Implied odds can change in the hand. Just because you have the implied odds preflop doesn't mean you will post flop, also reads on the villian are vital.

Say you set mine 55 and know the villian has KK flop comes AA5, now you have little to no implied odds.

Almost all odds questions are street by street considerations unless all the money goes in the middle. You can't count odds to make a flush by the river if you have money behind because your opponent can bet again on the turn.

the most frequent implied odds situation that will come up every time you play poker is always going to be preflop. implied odds go to shit if your opponent doesn't hit right? so the best situation is to have a hand like 67 suited and have and opponent with aces, because if you hit the flop hard, your opponent may commit his whole stack to a non threatening flop, but if you hit one pair it will definetly not be worth it to try to make a set, or two pair no matter what odds you are getting, it just wont happen enough. in my opinion implied odds are more of a hassle to deal with than anything post flop when you can be thinking about more important things. Use pot odds post flop it will be more beneficial in the long run, in my opinion, not saying that it is a fact, just how i think about it