I feel like i am a great player but emotion is ruining my game.

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widowmaker024

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I feel as though i am a better poker player then my results are showing simply because i let emotion run my game sub consciously and i do not know how to remove this from my game, can anyone help?
 
Jblocher1

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Take a break after bad beats if you need to, however skill is mostly result oriented so browse the forum and post hands and we can all help you fix leaks if you have clear and obvious ones (which is very possible) emotion most likely is not the only factor
 
hobonc

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i let emotion run my game sub consciously

By this do you mean that you don't accept losses well?

If that is the case then perhaps your expectations may be out skew. How long have you been playing? What steps have you taken to advance your skill level in addition to experience? Are the things which cause your emotions a "normal" part of poker, ie variance, inexperience of opponents causing them to make questionable plays that result in a long shot win, bankroll swings which are inevitable, etc.?

One should not allow their temper to make them play poorly (called being "on tilt") because not only does a level head mean better decisions, other players can use your tendency to tilt against you.
 
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widowmaker024

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That is some good advice, i was hoping to find maybe a player that would have a chat over skype or something one day and let me view them playing for a while and just have a chat about what they are doing and why to understand other players insights.
 
Blobweird123

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That is some good advice, i was hoping to find maybe a player that would have a chat over skype or something one day and let me view them playing for a while and just have a chat about what they are doing and why to understand other players insights.

Ya know, i'd love to do this as well. Would really like to pick a better players brain on their play!
 
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widowmaker024

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I have read pretty much every poker book ive found, slept with things like the little green book audio playing in my ears, played both live and online for a very long time, probably since i was 11 or 12 or so.. which would be roughly 10 years now, never really put any money into poker until the past 6 months or so, ive always watched poker games, i understand the math of it all, it just seems that when i make a move such as.. Pushing pre flop with a high AK-AQ and upwards, getting called by like a Q10, completely out of position, and ends up flopping a monster and completely robbing me playing like an ace pair or something, i guess i get really frustrated at players playing any 2 cards, not only because they are playing like 40% of their hands but they are lucking out when they play their "junk" (My opinion) starting hands. And before you know it my pre flop raises have turned me into a short stack, so when i do shove my AK into a 4-6 and get crushed im just like.. What the hell did i do wrong? And im assuming playing against these players is making my emotions get the better of my decisions.
 
hobonc

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I'm not sure people would be comfortable with that. Others do this for a fee. Why don't you post some hands and allow others to critique them? If possible, use the hand converter tool at the top of the thread listings under your avatar.

If the Hnad converter isn't an option for the site you play on then be sure to list as much info on the hand as possible. Including:
Type of play (MTT, SnG, cash game)
Stakes/buy in
Number of players at table
All action in the hand (bets, raises, re-raises, folds etc)
Your cards (and villain's if possible)
Community cards

Any other info on the opponent's playing styles and any explainanion of why you acted as you did if possible.

Doing this is very helpful for beginning players. Most of the members here are willing to help and should do so respectfully when you have made any errors in their judgement.

Welcome to cardschat!
 
hobonc

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Remember one thing Widowmaker....some of the info you get from books (and others) may not be as applicable in free-rolls and micro-stakes as it would be in higher stakes. It's like what I tell people when they say their dog won't bite. I tell them they know that, and now I know it, but the dog may not know it yet. Sometimes in low stakes the players are so clueless they mess up even the best laid plans, lol.
 
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widowmaker024

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"I'm not sure people would be comfortable with that. Others do this for a fee. Why don't you post some hands and allow others to critique them?" Well im comfortable helping out less experienced players because teaching is a great way of remembering for yourself the Key points of your gameplay. And lucky for me there's already been a good response in PM's :)
 
DaReKa

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The more you practice, the more you learn, and the more you understand poker. When you understand situations at the table more frequently, emotion tends not to affect your game, because you always have solid reasoning behind the plays you make. Just try to stay focused and keep thinking about everything that your opponents do as well as what you're going to do, before you do it.

What stakes do you play? And do you play cash? I'm still a scrub myself, but if you wanna chat about poker on skype sometime, my screen name is frflnk. As far as observing a session with screen share, I think people aren't comfortable with that because it would be easy to get on the same table and take their money.
 
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Your probably not as good as you think you are or else your emotions wouldnt be swaying you so much. No hate, and I have faith in you.
 
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You clearly don't understand the math. If you get it in with AK vs. QT and lose, this isn't some tragic or unexpected result. No matter what, unless they go all in and muck, opponents will have equity. When you have AK vs. QT and win, you don't think much of it, but you won 100% of the chips when you only had 60% equity. Even if you have AA you are going to lose to QT 18%-19% of the time. If you are being results-oriented then you need to change that right away because you clearly don't understand how money is made in poker.
 
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I have read pretty much every poker book ive found, slept with things like the little green book audio playing in my ears, played both live and online for a very long time, probably since i was 11 or 12 or so.. which would be roughly 10 years now, never really put any money into poker until the past 6 months or so, ive always watched poker games, i understand the math of it all, it just seems that when i make a move such as.. Pushing pre flop with a high AK-AQ and upwards, getting called by like a Q10, completely out of position, and ends up flopping a monster and completely robbing me playing like an ace pair or something, i guess i get really frustrated at players playing any 2 cards, not only because they are playing like 40% of their hands but they are lucking out when they play their "junk" (My opinion) starting hands. And before you know it my pre flop raises have turned me into a short stack, so when i do shove my AK into a 4-6 and get crushed im just like.. What the hell did i do wrong? And im assuming playing against these players is making my emotions get the better of my decisions.

Shoving with AK-AQ preflop is a bad play, getting all your money in with A high is terrible. Seems to me PATIENCE is your biggest problem. Good luck!
 
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widowmaker024

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I appreciate the criticism and advice, i just wan to better myself at the end of the day.
 
Poker Orifice

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Ya know, i'd love to do this as well. Would really like to pick a better players brain on their play!

I've been reading & following your posts & was thinking about asking you if you might be interested in this. (send me a pm if you're interested)
 
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marcumx

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this is perfect example why i never raise pre flop with AK. I've been told it's the wrong play but in my experiences so far, and yours, it's not. Cash game maybe, but SNG's and tourneys, alot of people will call with anything just to see a flop and they usually luck out. I've broken several things in the last month when i've been ahead and got sucked out by stupid stupid stupid hands. ALL in call with 7 3 and beat my KK???
 
Blobweird123

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I've been reading & following your posts & was thinking about asking you if you might be interested in this. (send me a pm if you're interested)

Thanks for the opportunity PO! Sent a pm
 
A2345Razz

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this is perfect example why i never raise pre flop with AK. I've been told it's the wrong play but in my experiences so far, and yours, it's not. Cash game maybe, but SNG's and tourneys, alot of people will call with anything just to see a flop and they usually luck out. I've broken several things in the last month when i've been ahead and got sucked out by stupid stupid stupid hands. ALL in call with 7 3 and beat my KK???

Don't listen to this advice.
 
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widowmaker024

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If anyones interested in sweating my hands over skype with me im currently at 4 of 48 with 70BB;s 2hrs and 34 minutes in to a $500 Guarantee (1r+1a) whilst also playing a 26% $5,000 Guarantee where im sitting at 79 BB;s 1hr 56 minutes in sitting 4 of 75 just send me a pm id love the help.
 
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You say your a great player but emotion is ruining your game yet you want people to give you play by play strategy advice. So I think you need to be open and honest with yourself. It is very costly to over estimate oneselves abilites. If you admit you might not be as good as you thought you were it forces you to review your mistakes and be accountable to them. Also reread your books. Post hands and ask questions about them.

The more you know what good strategy is the easier it will be to keep emotions in check when you lose a pot. If you know you made the right play and you lost, it all good. Provided that you are playing within both your actual bankroll limits and your psycological bankroll limits.

also read books like the poker mindset and books by alan shoonmaker. But there are others too.
 
Arjonius

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It seems you may be missing something. Emotions and the degree to which you can keep them from affecting you are part of your game. Just having an exceptional level of knowledge doesn't make you a great or even a good player. It's about being able to apply your knowledge / skill advantage consistently and effectively.
 
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Mursilis1

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by no means am I saying that learning strategy alone is the solution: there are great books on mindset and psycology out there and i stongly recommend them, but having an exceptional level of knowledge and knowing when and how to apply it helps with emotional control.. this is because if you use good strategy your variance is less and you know that you are making good plays. this is very important when losing.

So again I think it is important that players of all levels look inward and try to objectively evaluate thier game.
There is always room for improvment whether its fine tuning fundamentals or gaining new insights and skills...
 
taaron

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I feel as though i am a better poker player then my results are showing simply because i let emotion run my game sub consciously and i do not know how to remove this from my game, can anyone help?


If you are a cash grinder I'd be happy to do some sweats, but it appears as though your a tourney guy? So can't help you much there.

There were several really bad critiques where emotions were being marginalized. The emotional leaks in poker are what is known as "The Mental Game", and is a massively critical part of improving at the game. Poker strat and theory will make you better but without a solid mental game you'll never consistently play your A and B games (A.k.a your best possible game).


Jared Tendler has just finished his second book on this very important aspect. His first book "The Mental Game of Poker" is by far the most helpful poker book I've ever read, as tilt-emotions are much more subconscious, and cerebral than most realize.


I wrote a good bit about this and here is a few thins I've read and learned about this, i'll put it in spoiler form, hope it helps, but make sure you pick up Tendler's book.


PART 1
Overcoming Tilt (Part 1)
By: Taaron

I was asked to create a strategy article about overcoming tilt. At first I was shocked because the friend who asked me to write this knows that I have egregious game flaws due to my excessive tilt control and rationalization issues. That being said I write about this critical concept of Mental Game as one with firsthand experience. I will do my best to dive into the various descriptions and aspects of tilting.

First and foremost; what is Tilt or Tilting? We are mostly all familiar with having a hand where our whole stack /or Buy-In /or sitting 200+ Bi's deep is put all in with the best hand only to have the villain suck out his miracle card on the river. Well forget the fact that we got the money in "good" and as a massive 92%+ favorite. What emotionally or mentally occurs when we lose that hand? There are several natural reactions that can result in us playing our subpar weakest game. In addition there is no one size fits all mental game response, solution, or quick fix.

1.) Some may become discouraged or sulk; "why does this always happen to me", "and no one else," or "I am so unlucky."

2.) Some may become angry and mad. Play to many hands, marginal hands and overplay marginal spots.

3.) Some lose the ability to think properly and apply correct concepts that allow us to play our best game. This is really the key point.

Before going any further, let’s think about what our best most solid game looks like?

This is such a massive concept, and so varied that we can't possibly put in a specific formula for a specific "best game." This is because we are all at different spots in our poker progression. My best game 4 weeks ago is substantially worse than it is today, and compared to better card players, my game is substantially flawed. However, we can form a few broad generalizations about the overall characteristics.

Characteristics of Our Best Game

* We maintain proper mental attitudes regardless of what is happening.

* We apply successful winning strategies and adjust to villain types and table dynamics.

*We have an excellent level of concentration and clarity of thought.

* We go through our thought process checklist; ensuring we have a logical reason for making a decision (i.e. Why is it good to 3bet OOP here w/ JJ; or Why is folding AKo an okay play facing a 4bet from a villain UTG with a 10 vpip/8 pfr and 100% fold to 3bet ).

It is only through understanding our problems and correcting our weaknesses that we are able to improve.


When people would tell me things like; "Just stop tilting," it would provide the catalyst for me becoming even more upset. I remember telling myself things in a mantra like a Buddhist monk; "Don't tilt, Don't tilt, lol, Don't tilt." I now look back and realize how naive it was to think that simply trying to will myself to not tilt would work. To better understand this point would be one bad-standard beat, followed immediately by 2 or 3 others on different tables. Of course this would set me on fire, as if losing 1 bi wasn't enough, now I've just got sucked out on 2 other tables within a matter of minutes. If we do not have logical and pragmatic ways to overcome situations like this we will never learn to overcome tilt. In addition, it should be understood that we never truly overcome tilt completely, however we do learn to manage and deal with tilting in a way that closely resembles having "overcome."

We begin to look closely at what causes /or circumstances trigger negative mental reactions. We begin to take notes and thoughtfully consider the various situations that arise in a given session and thus address them post session or at very least before our next session. This is Part 1 of a three part series that I am working on to discuss Tilting. The next part we will be further evaluating the causes and reactions, as well as to start looking at recourses in stabilizing our mental responses.



Part 2
Overcoming Tilt (Part 2)
By: Taaron

Hello again everyone, Taaron checking back in with part 2 of my 3 part “Overcoming Tilt”. I hope to get some feedback on how this maybe helping you in your mental game.

In summary of Part 1 it was asserted that mental game is an integral part of overall strategy to be successful poker players. In Part 2 we will revisit this concept and attempt to unlearn falsehoods /or misconceptions about tilting. We will then make effort to correctly learn proper mindsets and how mental game problems become manifest, as well as how to think rationally in given “spots” while on the felt. It is important to remember that an irrational or tilted mindset does not learn how to overcome weakness.

When I first realized I had a tilt problem and not a lack of knowledge problem it seemed like I would be able to quickly and easily fix the problem and stop monkey spewing copious amounts of Buy-ins. My thinking was very simple; ‘just don’t get upset and be relaxed no matter what’. This worked for a couple or maybe a few sessions that were, in hindsight, not negatively high variance. I started thinking that I had my tilting ‘under control’ and could now easily beat this level. Well, the next several weeks saw me worse off than ever, literally angry or disappointed every time I misread a hand or lost a hand to a “fish.” Yelling at the air “How could he chase to the river like that?” I immediately sunk into an irrational state of mind where hand reading and thought process checklists were completely lost; I was essentially just donating money. I probably went bust 3 or 4 times within a few weeks and had to redeposit my whole roll for that level. This is a worst case scenario but we all know that I am not the only one who has struggled with this type of issue.

Skype poker buddies and study friends probably thought I just sucked or who knows what else. It was difficult because I felt as though I knew everything pertinent to being able to beat the current level, but I was losing more than winning. It was a flaw in my mental game that my tiltedness was preventing me from properly or truly learning card playing strategy. During this time I was dealing with a ton of stress in the small business that I own and operate as well as family stresses. It was poker that was my relaxing fun time. So when the poker gods began mistreating me (imo) it is easy to understand how tilt spewing buy-ins was a normal part of every session. It wasn’t just a bad beat that would set me off or the constant echo in my head about “running bad.” It was anything and everything but it all boiled down to 1 thing and 1 thing only; Mental Game. In addition, I know for a fact that friends were getting impatient with me when I would post hands that were so similar, yet due to my horrible mental game the advice was not truly being learned and put into practice.


Understanding Mental Game

A solid mental game is not only helpful to people like me who struggle contradicting negative thoughts while at the table. A solid mental game is an essential component for any successful poker player or athlete. Most people probably don’t even realize they are engaged in good or subpar mental game, as it is just more natural or less difficult for certain individuals to think clearly when engaged in critical thinking and high pressure decision making. Mental Game is our thought process and emotional engines while engaged in any sort of game. It is an abstract idea but a simple process, and by simple I mean lacking in complexity not whether it is easy or difficult.

We need to remember that everyone learns differently and concepts and strategies that are easily understand by some are not easily understood by all. There were a plethora of better players telling me to do this, and do that, but I didn't understand WHY they were correct? This is all a part of learning a solid thought process.

At this point I highly recommend buying the book: The Mental Game of Poker. By Jared Tendler. This book has helped me understand poker in a whole new way. This book will help explain what a solid mindset is, in ways that are so advanced by comparison to my basic article. We have to realize what is at the root of our tilt problems and then work through them. This can be a challenging task but will allow for greater mental acuity while in sessions, and ultimately greater winnings.

One of the most helpful things I learned from reading; The Mental Game Of Poker, was so simple yet it had never been phrased in such a way that the concept would resonate in perfect frequency with my tilty brain. In order to move forward we must first fix what is behind. This is abstract of course but it is yet again so simple. Tendler uses the analogy of an Inchworm to aid in understanding a key part of developing good mental game. When the Inch worm moves forward, it must first pick up its hind section, plant it forward and only then does its front actually move forward. We have to fix our weaknesses, and once they have become strengths we can then truly move forward.

For me personally this meant needing to correct several weaknesses. Now I will detail weaknesses that were and today still do create problems for me.

1.) Overplaying a hand when I know I’m beat. This is me going to showdown and then hating myself for doing something that I knew better than to do. An example of this would be playing a very loose but passive fishy opponent where I have a TPTK type hand. I have AsKs OTB, villain is in the small blind. I raise to a standard 3.5xbb and villain flats. The flop comes Ah 2h 6s, this is a great spot to cbet I think because it is 2 tone, but given my opponent maybe I check the flop with the intention of betting the turn or re-raising, a lot will depend on villains actions post flop. I decide to check. Villain decides to bet and I re-raise, only to have the villain snap shove and show me their set of 6’s.

2.) Assuming that variance is disproportionately stacked against me. Otherwise known as ‘running bad’, or being extra unlucky. This is resolved by thinking logically about the game itself, learning to hand read better and correcting actual flaws in context with the specific hand that is causing me uncertainty. Post hands in a Skype study group or online for peer review.

3.) Losing two or more “all-in” hands simultaneously or within a few minutes time that are ambiguous as to being a bad beat, or were they misplayed. This is a very dangerous predicament for me, especially if the villain(s) I lost the hand(s) to are fish. This has to be dealt with immediately or bad things WILL take place. These hands are of course QQ+ or AQ+ type hands where we have flopped the nuts or turned the nuts w/ 80%+ equity. Quick little mental “stickies” can be learned. But if we are not willing to think logically or rationally we must learn the discipline of logging out until we regain our ability to do so.



This sums up Part 2 of my series for “Overcoming Tilt,” please feel free to comment and as always I truly hope this has helped in your quest to improve as a player.
 
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Mursilis1

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Maybe you were referring to my post maybe you wernt but it seems like on this site my advice is bad a lot and on another site I use its great... I dont know I stand by my advice good strategy helps with emotional control and any good book on the mental game will tell you that...

If you were an expert at emotional control but didnt know good strategy you wouldnt be a winning player and if you were and expert at strategy and sucked at keeping your emotions in check you might win some of the time ie. at the begging of sessions and or if you didnt have any bad beats durning the session.. ( by the way those are just two causes of tilt but there are more.. just an example of a good player losing his focus)



but I want to make it very clear that I am not marginalizing "the mental game of poker"

If you know your making good plays and you know your a really good player than you really need to be working hard on your mental game..


Read the book suggested by taaron and read poker mindset and books by alan shoonmaker. There many many books on the subject.

GL
 
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Mursilis1

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Try evaluating every session you play right after and note your mistakes than review the mistakes before your next session...

• How well you played overall
• Quality of your thinking
• Quality of decisions
• Number and size of mistakes
• Quality of focus

this has a lot to do with your mental game as well as strategic decisions so it should help
 
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