I cant slow play( trap )

So I was trying to use slow playing mre in my game since I used to be a really really fast player but after using it today in 30 minutes I lost 4 buy ins and am more tilted than I've ever been in my poker life. I mean it might be because i ran really bad (i was stubborn in some places but tbf it's probably gonna work in the long term). After slow playing one hand I allowed a guy to bluff me out of a massive pot. I feel like shit. His play mean little sense but i have no history with him and I just had to believe he had it. If I didn't slow play it I would of easily taken it down. I'm a good fast player (I have a very similar style to gus Hansen ) but when I slow play it's so much harder to put my opponents on hands, takes longer time to decide what the right play is (so I play 4 tables instead on 8) -6 max tables I play cash game 3/6c.

Any tips? I'm so tilted I am going mad.

Don't slowplay then, you will often fall victim to suckouts and it is hard to gain any information about the strength of your opponents hand (because they see you as weak and will bet whether they have it or not).

Someone on here told me a while ago that there is no reason to slow play at the micro levels, and it was good advice. Only do it if you hold the nuts or near nuts and they love to bet and shove

Izaak - you always say your going mad or suicidal every time I see you make a thread, it's depressing to read.

It really does sound like you need to take a break from it, it sounds like you don't even like poker and HATE it to be honest.. You seem to just be focusing on wanting to win money and lots of it (which isn't really possible at micros) you need to sit back, 1 table playing and enjoying poker then once you start enjoying the game and maybe start winning, then move up or add tables.

As for your question though, if you can't slow play correctly, then theres no point in at. As micromachine says, you don't in general NEED to even slow play at micros to still get paid off unless you know your opponent. If you play really really fast normally and all of a sudden slow play, even the worse players will pick up on it.

If you are playing micro stakes and you have 22 and flop comes ak2 you are in pretty good position to take down the pot. If you do not bet enough to get the qj, k10, q 10 and the likes out of there you could be in trouble. A lot of times even if you push all in you will get three callers with any 2 face cards hoping to catch the 1 they need for the strt. In that scenario I just shove and hope the guy holding the ace calls.Even if you flop the nut flush slow play can get you if the board pairs, Thats the last thing I want to see.
You really have to pick the flops. I mean if you have AA and the flop comes AA ? you have no need to bet at all. And interesting enough I found that on the river if you have The absolute nutz. And a guy has been betting. That shoving all in sometimes entices a call. They think that buy you shoving all in you are trying to buy the pot. I mean if a guy has AK and you have j 10 and the board at the river shows AKQ 67. If you push you most likely will get a call.

Why would you slowplay? I see no reason for it.

your line of reasoning is just awful

You play your way I play mine. Tell me if you have 22 and flop comes AK2 what do you do?
And tell me if you have AA and flop copmes AA what do you do ?
And tell me if you have AQ of spades and flop comes K96 of spades what do you do ?
I would like to know.

Lol, the other extreme to slow playing. If you just shove every time it's pretty obvious you have a great hand and you will miss out on tonnes of value.

In all of the situations you mention you should have raised preflop, now you can do between 3/4 pot and pot sized bet, just like you would if you had flopped top pair. Then no-one can tell how good your hand is.

Slowplaying is just not a good tool to be using and will not work at the micro stakes most of the time, there are so many ways you can be beat especially in a multi-way pot, if you have one villain and you have a good read on him you may can pull it off.

Why would you want to 'get the likes out' when you flop a set w 22 on a AK2 flop? That makes zero sense to me.
Obviously you're likely to get paid off well if in fact villain is holding a big Ace.. or even better if they've got AK. if they don't, then you're unlikely to make much off hand anyways.... so.... we're betting (BET BET BET) for VALUE here.. we want to get as much value as possible with a hand like this (not 'jam' flop to 'get them out' & win the minimum... but not puney goofy bets where we're not building up a decent pot where we setting it up for a decent-sized turn bet, hopefully building a pot where we're able to get it allin with a ~pot-sized river bet (or whatever.. 3/4'ish' or whatever for sake of discussion).
Pretty sure this is why you got the comment after your post.

I'm assuming you're 'slow-playing' vs. players who you feel are going to be betting aggressively? So now you've slowplayed this hand but with intentions of what? (to fold when they do what you were hoping they'd do? To me, 'this' makes no sense???)

An example of slow playing working, I checked the turn to induce the bluff.

If he had also checked the turn I would have probably done a 1/2 pot river bet for value...I wouldn't have slow played the whole hand.

PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($8.78)
MP ($1.93)
Button ($8.54)
SB ($5.29)
Hero (BB) ($5)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A
UTG bets $0.10, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Button calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.12) K, A, 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, Button calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.52) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1.44, Hero calls $1.44

River: ($5.40) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $3.08, Hero calls $2.36 (All-In)

Total pot: $10.12 | Rake: $0.49

Results:
Button had 10, Q (one pair, Kings).
Hero had K, A (full house, Kings over Aces).
Outcome: Hero won $9.63

Well, if your style really is like Gus (playing an insane amount of hands and trying to force opponents to make mistakes by sheer aggression) then why is there a need to slowplay?

If you play the same style with good and bad hands you add balance and disguise the cases where you have the nuts because it looks like a bluff and vice-versa.

Obviously, as always, it depends but if your general style is LAG, why would you deviate from that? LAGs inherently generate action because of their style.

Answer:
BET!

Oh yeah and OP has a problem, he's just learning poker and he's using some wacked out style to justify bad play. Fundamentals first. Your BR will thank you.

Every time I get bit in the butt slow playing, I swear I'll never slow play again. Slow playing is tricky. I think there are only two situations where you should slow play:

(1) You have the nuts.
(2) You know your opponent and know you have a better hand than he does and he can't improve over you.

You didn't have the nuts and you didn't know your opponent. So don't slow play in that situation. Generally with slow playing, you want your opponent's hand to improve. That way you can get him to put some more money into the pot. But if him improving means that he beats you, it's a really bad strategy. IMO, at least.

Izaak, I too have read posts by you and you need to take a deep breath - IMO - and learn how to learn.

If you dont learn from your mistakes you will simply continue to make them.

Poker is a hard game to play well. And you can only play well if you try to learn. Getting mad and venting about where you lose the most may give you some immediate satisfaction, but it will not help you get better.

Slow playing is like playing any hand. You need a plan. If you limp with your KK UTG, as an example, and are on an aggressive table where your plan is to c/r, and you get 6 limpers and the flop comes A x x suited and you dont have that suit, you need to be ready to throw your KK away. Say you c bet, get a raise, 2 callers and an all in shove. Are you gonna spite call here? Its just one hand. If you slowplay, be ready to lose cause you are giving your opponents an opportunity to get exactly the card they need to beat you. If you dont understand the dynamics of plays then dont make them.

And I will quote a low stakes pro who helps me out sometimes. "If you get emotional when you play, you will lose money. Lots of money"

I hate slowplaying.
After reading the book "the theory of poker" I tried to find that type of player whom would hang him or herself when you just check back.

That just ended up costing me a bunch of money.

Slowplaying will do nothing but get you into trouble, especially at the micros. If you have a hand bet it, play straightforward and try not to bluff to often. Just playing flat out ABC poker at anything 25nl and under will be profitable in the long run. Does it suck when you have KK and the flop is K,10,6 you bet out and they fold? yes; sucks even more when you're slowplaying allows them to only pay for 2 streets and they get there with like Q8 after a J and 9 come running.

Had I bet on this hand no way I would have gotten all his chips no way



Hand#28119FBD1B000089 - $1 NL Hold'em T10468635 -- CASH -- $1 + $0.1 -- 10 Max -- Table 10 -- 0/15/30 NL Hold'em -- 2011/12/16 - 09:30:44
Dealer: Seat 2
Seat 1: TACJD1 (695 in chips)
Seat 2: chodan (1,670 in chips)
Seat 3: tomonline (1,665 in chips)
Seat 4: DocHolidday (1,350 in chips)
Seat 5: mahdy46 (1,365 in chips)
Seat 6: koob (1,408 in chips)
Seat 7: MartiniBR (1,725 in chips)
Seat 8: JesusSaves! (1,780 in chips)
Seat 9: jjsempire11 (1,257 in chips)
tomonline: posts small blind 15
DocHolidday: posts big blind 30
Dealt to DocHolidday [Jc,Qh]
mahdy46: folds
koob: calls 30
MartiniBR: calls 30
JesusSaves!: folds
jjsempire11: folds
TACJD1: folds
chodan: folds
tomonline: calls 15
DocHolidday: checks
*** FLOP *** [Jh,Qd,Jd]
tomonline: checks
DocHolidday: checks
koob: is all in 1,378
MartiniBR: folds
tomonline: folds
DocHolidday: is all in 1,320
koob: returns uncalled bet 58
DocHolidday: shows [Jc Qh]
koob: shows [Qs Td]
*** TURN *** 5♥
*** RIVER *** 6♠
***SHOW DOWN***
DocHolidday wins 2,760 with Full House Jacks full of Queens

Right after this hand
Hand#28119FBD6E000094 - $0.25 NL Hold'em - R&A T10468718 -- CASH -- $0.25 + $0.1 -- 10 Max -- Table 5 -- 0/25/50 NL Hold'em -- 2011/12/16 - 10:38:18
Dealer: Seat 7
Seat 1: GilmarDJ (4,455 in chips)
Seat 2: ZyXXX740 (2,840 in chips)
Seat 3: DocHolidday (4,390 in chips)
Seat 4: billtakesall (4,070 in chips)
Seat 6: TreyD51 (4,620 in chips)
Seat 7: maestro187 (2,880 in chips)
Seat 8: CRABLOUIE55 (1,620 in chips)
Seat 9: AdLib2 (2,597 in chips)
Seat 10: TRIPEL (1,375 in chips)
CRABLOUIE55: posts small blind 25
AdLib2: posts big blind 50
Dealt to DocHolidday [9s,8s]
TRIPEL: folds
GilmarDJ: folds
ZyXXX740: raises to 134
DocHolidday: calls 134
billtakesall: folds
TreyD51: folds
maestro187: folds
CRABLOUIE55: folds
AdLib2: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d,5c,6h]
ZyXXX740: bets 300
DocHolidday: calls 300
*** TURN *** J♥
ZyXXX740: bets 850
DocHolidday: is all in 3,956
ZyXXX740: is all in 1,556
DocHolidday: returns uncalled bet 1,550
ZyXXX740: shows [Ks Kd]
DocHolidday: shows [9s 8s]
*** RIVER *** 3♥
***SHOW DOWN***
DocHolidday wins 5,755 with Straight Nine high
ZyXXX740 rebuys 3000 chips

Slow play is just a tool like the bluff, it's a situational tactic not a system of play. I'm pretty simple when I choose to slow play.
1) I'm Way Ahead and very unlikely to be drawn out on
2) I have multiple opponents and just trying to get as many bets into the middle as possible
3) I have a manaic doing all the betting for me, I'll get him commited by the river an shove at the showdown.

Pretty much any other time it is incorrect to slowplay even with a monster since I can maximize by betting and raising

Both horrible examples. 1st hand is closer to a hand you should slow play but with TP any idiot who would be shoving 1400 chips into a 150 chip pot is NEVER folding. You're wrong if you think otherwise and since it was limped preflop you need to be betting the flop to start trying to build the pot.

2nd hand fold preflop and again you could have easily got all the $$s in on the flop.

Do not use results to justify your bad play.

After reading the OP.. then reading all the other comments.. then rereading the OP.... I think the OP's definition of "slow playing" is different from ours. I think he's actually slowly playing.. like as in.. taking more time to make a decision.



He keeps talking about how he's usually a fast player, but has now tried "slow playing".. which really has nothing to do with slow playing.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-d.../slow-play.php
To act in a way to deceive other players that you have a weak hand when in fact your hand is strong. For example, check the flop and turn and then raise the opponent's bet on the river.

Example: I shouldn't have slow played my set on the flop. I checked behind and he made a straight on the turn.

You can say a lot of things but do not say I play bad that is just being rude period. And had I had kk and flop comes 567 and someone shoves all there chips in I would fold. If you think you can beat me come play a few tourneys at cake. I would like to show you a few things.
As far as your advice I choose to leave it cause obviously you have no real clue what you are saying

Seems smart. I'd rather stab my eyes out than play any tourney much less a $1 BI so I'm going to have to pass. Good luck to you and remember it's what you learn after you know it all that matters most.

sorry Cali but WV is right, after reading some of your posts you are super aggressive and antagonistic in your comments. I haven't seen any decent logic behind your posts and vitriol towards anyone who disagrees with you. I am not trying to offend you I am just saying look at your posts and the tone you set. Some ppl will say you are "stupid" but if you can defend your position without loosing your cool your posts will make a lot more sense and theirs will make less.

It's not always about who's right or wrong, it's about discussion and what is the most correct play. An open forum, like CC, gives rise to new ideas and ways of thinking about things. Some may be condescending and insulting to you, but once again if you believe you are correct then you should be able to present your argument in a non-emotional way and defeat them with your relentless logic.

I guess it is always good to get someones opinion about how they perceive you after all everyone cannot be wrong. If I appear aggressive I apologize I will try to tone it down a bit, but I will stand behind my play on those hands. Why should I bet a hand that I know will be bet after all as WV said the $1 buy ins are full of lets say not so smart players. It probably takes more patience and skill to win against 100 aggressive donks than it would against the more solid players. I mean in the $1 buy ins you see all ins with any two cards.

That's the beauty of the micro's. You're right, you do see a lot of all-ins with any two cards. Just recently I seen a 6-bet pot between three players on the first hand of a $1.50T sng. One had AA, the other two had A5, and 73 soooted. You do know what that means, don't you? It means lots of easy profit.

While slowplaying and playing "tricky" hands oop to a pfr may make you feel like a champ when you flop the miracle and get paid off, it is completely unnecessary and won't happen often enough to be concerned about.

You defend your style, and that's great. Everyone's style is different, unique and special. But we play to make money. Bottom line. So keep your style, if you are playing against regs, but remember that randoms won't notice or care. Against random droolers, just keep to this simple formula: make a hand = value bet = profit.

If they're dumb enough to stack off with random garbage, get some money in the middle and let them give you their chips.

I believe you are on to something there, sir.

Izaak give us YOUR definition if slow playing.

Also the comment about how you play similar to Gus is very worrisome

I play the micros and never check a big hand. Most of the tables are loose enough that you will get a call with a half pot bet on the flop. You might want to push if you see 2 suited or 2 connected on the board. You will get a lot of people even calling an all in when holding 4 to a flush or straight at that level. But checking the flop is leaving money in villain's stack instead of on the table where it belongs.

What do you do when you're stuck 6 figures and flop a boat against the big stack?

You will find with WV he can sound abrupt at times but honestly, he knows what he is talking about.

Your comment about "showing you a few things are two" is just plain redic to say, you sound like an arrogant sod and to be honest what you have said in this thread is stupid and I don't think you could "show" anyone much they already don't know especially WV and most people in this thread have a better idea. No offence, but you do sound like some new kid on the block with a bit of a attitude who has a lot to learn still.

I think the only way you would get WV to play you is to full stack $200 or so in cash games, not micro $1.00 a SNG or summin I'm unsure if your BR would be even a buy-in for his limit ;P

IMO there's a difference between slow playing and trapping.

Slow playing has to do with having a strong hand which is beatable. You don't wanna get boinked on the river, and you don't wanna release the hand, so you try to keep the betting tolerable.

Trapping is when you have the nuts, and you're sure you can't be beat. It only really works well against an aggressive player who does your betting for you. Or against easy folders. In which case, you're just waiting for them to complete.

Mixing up the two is where we get into trouble.


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Good point. There was a time when I had the nuts like the top set after the flop in multiway pot and slow played it that I trap myself losing to a straight or flush