I AM SICK OF LOSING! IM STARTING OVER!

I think im going to re start everything in know about poker. Im going to go from the Play money up untill i can make 10 million play chips. Then i know i am ready to START playing real money. I have been a loseing player for a good year now. I am fed up with it. I have tryied reading books, i have practiced, i know the game. i just tend to get my money in at the wrong times and i get broken. So i am going to Build a Play money Bank roll. I know its not saying much because any good player can do it. But it is a goal for me. Beacuse i suck at poker apperantly bc i can not seem to win money. Well hope someone is intrested in following me or even giving me advice. Also looking for a coach to teach me so i can become a good poker player, if anyone wants 2 help a broke and sucky player who loves the game.... Wish me luck fellas!

Oh and i will be doing all this on Full tilt poker My screen name on there is Darkassassin89 If anyone one wants to rail my pitiful A$$ :P

Much luck. (:

You can earn eleventy billion play chips and when you come back to real money you'll still lose. Play money teaches you absolutely nothing.

gl though.

Well It has to teach me something. Adapting and overcoming. Is that not what poker is about? Even with real money, you figure out what to do to beat your "villain" weather that be floping the nutz and slow playing him, to being hyper agressive to throw him off.

Nope. Nothing. It's all about ranges. You range vs their range. Since the ranges are WAY THE **** DIFFERENT you're just wasting your time learning to beat play money.

So poker is all about ranges? Dude teach me then. I want to know how "ranges" is key to poker.

Well if I can put my opponent on a range of hands I can know everything I need to know about whether I should value bet, bluff, or check. If I know my opponent is thinking about my range (unlikely at lower stakes) I can use my perceived range to value bet or bluff more effectively.

Let say we raise from EP and get called by a tight player on the BTN.

The flop is AdJd6s and we bet 2/3 pot. Our tight opponent raises an amount that commits him. What do we do?

Oh you think our card are important? Ok we have AQ with the Qd.

So what do we do? Well our range is mostly good Aces/big pairs and our yet our tight opponent wants to get all in so what's his range? Probably JJ/AJ/KdQd/66. So what do we do? FOLD instantly. Why? Because his range crushes us (we have less than 20% equity against that range).

Now change that opponent to a maniac and we might want to get all in because he'll have tons of draws and lots of worse Aces in his range AND he's not even thinking about our range. He has pretty cards and wants to bet.

Now imagine at your play money tables where the "best players" are like the maniac. What have you learned playing only that player type or worse?

While the lowest levels of playchips are typcially allin shoves with any two all the time, as you ascend the playchip ladder you begin to encounter more reasonable play. I'd still say the highest rungs of playchips are looser/more maniacal then the lowest rungs of the real money micros, but you actually DO encounter a number of thinking players at the upper levels.

I know people like to trash playchip play for teaching bad habits, but for someone without a lot of hand experience ascending the playchip ladder can teach a lot about basic hand experience/strength, bankroll management & going bust (without the heartache), and dealing with a TON of suckouts and keeping it in perspective. You can also start weeding out the better players from the trash heap, and begin to assign playing styles and ranges to them.

In my personal experience, I have learned a LOT about playing PLO cash games from playchips without ever investing a single cent of my real money roll. Gaining the hand experience for PLO just wouldn't be possible without putting a lot at risk in the early goings with a real money roll.

In my experience, it can also be a good tool at the upper levels to begin assigning labels to different types of players, and to begin to assign ranges to them and to think what level of poker they are playing (level 1 - I know what I hold, level 2 - I think about what villain holds, level 3 - I think about what villain thinks I hold, etc.) Yes, the percentage of pure maniacs and poor fundamental poker players even at the highest levels of playchips still is likely higher than the real money micros, but you also encounter some players who can actually think and apply levels 2 and 3. At the higher levels, you WILL be able to see the difference between the maniacs, the nits, and the strong players and begin to assign ranges to their hands.

----

As for practical advice for Darkassassin on getting enough playchips to get out of the low limit gutter of playchipdom...

I would recommend going through the full tilt poker SNG steps tourneys to get started. Buy a whole bunch of level 1 300 playchip tickets for the SNG steps, and just sit out the entire time. More than likely, about half of the tourneys you will win a ticket to level 2 without ever touching a button, and you will almost NEVER lose a ticket by placing worse than 4th. The same is true with level 2. Once you get a fair number of level 2 tickets, just buy a bunch, sit them out, and watch your level 3 tickets accumulate. Once you have about 10 or so level 3 tickets from doing basically nothing, it is time to play strict ABC poker, like you would read out of a basic SNG strategy. Do this, and more than likely one out of the ten tickets you hold will make it to the step 7 money, and then you have 100,000+ playchips to get going with.

You can then continue the step system to accumulate a deeper roll to experiment with the playcash games with, or start sitting into the cash games.

The step system basically involves no risk to your bankroll, so if you find the level of play that your bankroll supports to be too sloppy, just keep doing the steps system until you can reach the 300/600 blind levels of NL holdem or higher. To be appropriately rolled for 300/600, you would need about 1.2 million in chips. For NLHE, depending on the table I'd say you can start encountering somewhat reasonable players at the 1000/2000 blind levels.

Good luck to yeah and as for me, Im starting over too and sick of losing real money and should try play money too so once again good luck on and off the felts and see ya at the tables.

I don't see how dropping down to a stake (not even a stake) lower than 2nl will teach you how to beat the game. If you can't beat your stake, drop down and go from there. If you're at 2nl, stay there and grind it out.

but only if it's RIGGED! IMHO *sorry...couldn't help that*
Very helpful post other than that little error, thnx WV

how long does it take to put a player on a range or figure it out?

While everything WV says is true, there are still the fundamentals of online poker which must be absorbed and can be absorbed for free.

I applaud any player who goes thru the playchip regimen. They get a ration of shit from cash players who would really rather teach them the game at cash tables, for their profit and the fishes detriment and grief.

So in the OP darkassassin tells us he has found a flaw in his game, and is determined to figure out what that flaw is. And he is starting over to make sure he has the fundamentals down.

Bravo. Self realization is never a bad thing.

I too understand that the highest levels of playchip play are close approximations to cash games.

Absolutely the only thing you can never learn at play chips is the effect playing scared money has on your decisions. So to counter this unlearnable thing, you have to concentrate on learning BRM, and treating your playchips with respect.

a few more posts then u can play CC freerolls. there some of the best players u can play against, some pro players as well. i myself spend at least 5 hours a night playing cc freerolls and mtt torneys on CC, theres 1 almost every night. most if u ask at the table will run u through hands if u put in hand history. try putting $5 or $10 in a site and play small stakes 10 player sit and go better play and u learn more.........joker131

Some of the elements involved on how to put a player on a range;

1 History...have you watched this player?, What has he done before?

2 Position....Does this player seem to know anything about position, ?

3 Stack size. Is he being a bully, or is he timid beyond belief.

and many other factors....

But the most important one is probably the history. This is where trackers help the most. You could do the same with pad and pencil, but you wouldn't at first have any clue what you were tracking, or able to coalesce into usable data.

So watch. Watch the players, watch the table dynamics, watch for betting patterns, etc.

Nothing will make much sense at first, it will be like drunken hi school kids playing poker in the kitchen. But over time you will get a sense of how each player differs.

Time in that sense equates to hands played. The conventional wisdom is the more the merrier, but probably will take 10K hands played before you start noticing there are even differences between players. Once you notice you can notice differences, you can start thinking about how to categorize players, (loose, tight, weak, strong,,,etc.) It is a eureka moment when you notice you are noticing the differences.

Trackers help but are not necessary for beginners. They won't know how to use the data anyway. 10K hands till required before the data makes any sense.

More important might be observation and note taking. The note taking can help you categorize players a little faster. You can condense the notes later.

I must agree with this , it's kind of true. My record in play chips was about 3-4 million starting from 1k and i did all of them in less than 6 hours. Buuuut ofc when i get to a real money table its a whole new deal and i end up losing everytime. So imo there is absolutely nothing to learn from play chips other than the basic things of the game which i am sure you know already.

I saw you at the end of one game last night - too bad about the Kings getting cracked, but it didn't look like terrible play on your part given the board.

My opinion is that if you can't beat play money, then don't bother with real money. I think the level of play at the highest play money stakes can be comparable or better than micro stakes cash games (i.e. fewer maniacs). And I think it's almost certainly better than the early rounds of a freeroll which is generally just a shove-fest. After all, if you're playing at a high buy-in sit n go, you're playing with others who were at least good enough to collect all that play money from others. Some people just enjoy poker and are competitive, but may not want to get into the gambling aspect of it.

And while I'm sure that everyone here is only giving you their best advice and wouldn't let self-interest cloud their judgement, there might be some out there who would suggest that you continue playing with your own money so that it can become their money. I built up several million in play chips and was able to sell them for cash a few times, so if you're able to do that then you may never have to make another deposit. I'd much rather gamble with other people's money than my own.

Private freerolls are another way to go, and also the easier way to build a real money bankroll -- but you will NEVER get experience that way in a cash game setting. Playing MTT and ring games are very different beasts. Freerolls can be OK for learning how to play MTT, but if OP wants to gain ring game experience you have to actually play ring games.

Great advice and I agree with all you have said. Those that have not spent much time in playchips (> 2-3 weeks at the highest limits) don't really know what it's like.

I also highly second starting to take many notes on opponents. Note things like what hand ranges they are showing down with, what position they do it from, and how much they are betting (limp, 3xbb, shove, etc.) Before you can class a player, it's best to just take notes on all these things and if you see some patterns emerge you can then label the player.

Orcusan, I'd have to say that if you went from 1k to 3 million chips in under 6 hours you were not playing within your bankroll, and more than likely were just the recipient of some good luck in the form of great cards and terrible opponents. Yes, there are spewy players even in the higher limits of playchips, but if you spend 2-3 weeks in the higher levels you will see there are also good players that will take your chips if you think your TPTK is always good.

The fact that you lost your chips in real money after playchips tells me you did not attempt to learn anything from your playchip "experience". Obviously you made no attempt at proper bank roll management. Also, moving from playchips to realchips does take some adjusting, but you can apply many of the skills you learn in playchips and apply them to real.

Thanks for the advice this has been very helpful i will be able to apply this to my game and see were it takes me. So far i have about 9 step 2 tickets and will see how far i can get with them. I can also play in some 10,000 SNG's with the tickets and try to build from there. I have opptions hehe.

To everyone one else, After i get a starting bankroll (somewere in the 100,000's) i will start playing 1000-2000 buy in games and see were I can take myself. I know any player will be shoving bc u can re load 1k-2k in 5 to ten minutes but i know if i stay solid and play well I will be the one getting all those play chips every time I will get back to everyone when i have a solid grinding bank roll, So far i have a measly 4.3k hahah but i do have 9 step 2 tickets. Time to GRIND!!!!!

Sweet i now have 10 Step 3 play money tickets. So far the grind is going well. Just time consuming. Now should i try to get all step 4 tickets and paly 10,000 SNGs or should i run it up and keep playing and tryo to win a step 7 game any thoughts fellas?

I went from 7 step 3 tickets to 3 step 4 tickets and chose to play the SnG on the first I came in second for 27k and 4th the other 2 now with about 40k chips i'm going to repeat the process

I would strongly recommend the SnG as opposed to continuing up the ladder(though i've never personally tried) the 10k game is really easy about what you'd expect the 250 game to be but with better starting hands less shoving and bluffs are respected(though don't go crazy ABC will do just fine)

That's a great plan. Love it.

The biggest problem with play chips is that, if you are respecting BRM limits, you are probably the only one at the table. Nobody is worried about losing their starting stack when it's quickly replaceable.

This method gets you enough chips that you can stop playing "scared" (who is really scared with play chips?) and have a shot of playing a rational game. Then it becomes a plus that others are maniacs because maniacs are relatively easy to play.

There was a reply that the only thing you can learn with play chips is nothing.
I to am from WV, guess I have a different take.
I made my first bank roll on Poker Stars playing Omaha H/L. with play money. It took a long time of playing and lerning but after awhile I started in the 40k pre-flop and 40k AIOF games and over a couple mo. earned the max of 20 mill. chips which I sold privatly for $12. I continues playing play chips and earned another 20 mill and made $8.
With that I started playing and ended up placing well in the WCOOP Omaha H/L event on PS placing 57th.
Also there are the freerolls that offer 64 tickets to a $2k events. Many people start BRs with that.
Use play chips to play every game on PS for 15 to 20 min. every day to get a feel for the games and be a well rounded player so when they come up in such as 7 or 8 game you won't be in the dark.
Don't want to be a loser, take either the PS or FT acadamy programs, it's free and it wil give anyone better insite into the game.
I personally don't count nothing, range nothing, I'm not that smart. I pay attention to where I'm at, what I have and my gut and have been doing well paying attention to bmr. My calling % is round 12%, patience keeps me ITM in most cases. Don't overplay A anything (keep in mind 22 bust AK), chase and open w. premium hands. It's simple and works for me. Because of my previous advise I play every game evenly so stay with the play money and practice,IMO.
Good Luck and may the river be kind to ya...namaste

OP,

If the play money route is what you want to do good luck but I think its like trying to become a better football player by playing Madden on PS3.

In your first post you say that you have studied and know the game and just get it in at the wrong time. If you have been losing for a year I suspect you have some leaks costing you money.

Were you playing ring, MTT or sit/go?

What stakes were you playing and what kind of bankroll management were you using?

Do you have any tracking software (poker tracker 3 or holdem manager) ?

If you posted some hands and asked some questions there are several good players here (WVHillbilly and Stu Ungar leap to mind and there are others) who could probably give you some great advice. WVH's explanation of ranges in in this thread was awesome, for example. Read the strategy articles also.

You seem like you really want to work and get better and that is wonderful but make sure your not chasing a sunrise by running west. If you want to learn to beat cash games study your own play, read the forums and play the lowest micros until you can beat them and comfortably move up.

Good luck to you.

dont worry about anything bro...just keep playing play chips until you can afford playing comfortably with real money on the site.

Hell if you know you keep losing money it's a very responsible thing to do! even though it's not like real poker and it won't train you as fast it's still good to train yourself to the level where it's second nature and control your tilt trying to view your later real money like these time investing play chips.

Good luck on this man and hope you'll be moving up to the real thing as soon as you're ready !

Playing and cashing in a few of the tickets at the normal 10,000 SNG tables is one way to go, though I think the real goal is to get your bankroll up over a million as quickly as possible so you can get to the limits where people play a little stronger game.

Personally, I prefer to just go through the SNG steps and cash at the end of 7. Cashing top 3 in the step 7 game is much more lucrative than grinding out at the 10,000 SNG level. This does take some patience, but the games are sometimes very soft because you have all-in donks that have shoved their way to the higher steps sometimes, and they make no change to their gameplan in the higher steps. If you play very conservatively until the ticket bubble, it also makes it so that you usually won't ever lose a ticket. However, losing a ticket also usually doesn't matter other than losing a bit of time investment, since you bought in originally for 300 chips.

Quite honestly, I do find the monotony of multitabling steps to get boring after a while. However, this is by far the safest/easiest way to really grind out a playmoney roll so you can get into the higher limit cash games and experience better play while practicing sound bankroll management principles.

Hey guys I have 5 step 4 tickets as of right now. 1 step 3 and 1 step 2. Went on a bad donk fest run (running into donks not donking :P) and only 1 solid hand My AK v JJ and thats how i lost a ticket there. Well So far the grind is moving up slowly. I will let u all know when i hit a lvl 7 ticket so u can all watch me and wish me the best of lucks and rail and analiyze with me and what not Cant wait actually. See ya and wish me lucks!

I would think that play money is a HUGE waste of time. imo, spend 'some' of the time you'd waste on play money tables, railing someone who can play on the real money tables. (also, read stuff, watch a few training vids.).
Then.. start out playing the cheapest SNG's you can find (on Fulltilt there are guys building small bankrolls playing those 70cent SNG sattys, and I think there's 30cent ones on there too at times?).
The play is actually halfway decent in them & I believe that if you put some time in on them, that you 'should' be able to become a winning player in the micros ($2-$5 buyins). I would guess (by seeing them on the tables) that ALOT of the players in the $5's & $10's started lower & then put in a bit of volume (ie. on some $5 tables you'll find regs. who've played 1.000 to 5,000 sngs, w an avg. buyin of ~$2.. but they are now beating the $5's. I've also seen players in the 70cent SNG sattys who've played 500games at that buyin level & are building bankrolls from them).
Personally I could just never 'make' myself play on play money tables (the few secs. I've spent on them was to familiarize myself with software at a poker site i was going to start playing on... or when I wanted to re-set my options, bet-slider, etc.).. The play was horrendous (nobody was folding to a 3bet.. there could be 5 limpers.. a big raise.. & then a HUGE reraise.. & they'd ALL pretty much call. It was a Joke!

I would rather play 'Crazy 8's ' or 'Go Fish'.. or "War" than i would the poker play money tables. ugh!

I dont think playing Play money is THAT bad. Sometimes i get a good game going on. Also i need to play higher stakes in play money to really get a better poker players

Honestly, most of the people who bag on play money have not really spent much time there, and are basically only exposed to the lowest levels which are obviously going to be pretty horrible.

Of the benefits I did not already mention above, another thing I really like about starting out with play money is that it helps train you to become less results oriented.

Let me pose a question.

Situation: You are heads up at the final table of the WSOP ME.

Would you rather win the WSOP ME by making a stupid mistake and sucking out, or would you rather take second and be sucked out on?

If you answered you would rather make the right play and take second, you are not being honest with yourself, or you are a billionaire and 4+ million dollars means nothing to you. It is almost impossible to not be results oriented when the stakes are so high.

Now, let's change the situation and you are playing at your usual limits. Again, would you rather suckout and win or lose and have made the right decision? If playing correctly within your bankroll, the correct answer is to have lost but made the right decision. However, this case gets iffy for some people, as they would still say they would rather have sucked out and won. Money is money after all, right? And who doesn't want money. To be a better player though, your answer should be you prefer to have made the correct decision because that means you are likely to profit more in the future at your current skill level.

Now let's take this example to playchips, where virtually nothing is at stake other than time, pride, and your virtual bankroll. You can probably already see it is much easier to say you would rather have made the correct play than made a bonehead mistake and sucked out. When practicing to think in these terms, it starts to become second nature -- which can only be good for when moving to real cash games.

The sun will shine again. Is this the 'weather' your lookin for? There are no 'usual limits' in play chips, and u can't 'reload' indefinately with real cash, so 'play chips are what they are. PLAY chips.

Hey Guys who have been following. A blessing has happened I came across 15$ some how and have been slowly but surely grindint it up. I hope that i may keep this roll this time, andnot play outa my BR :P Wish me luck gentalmen. I still have all my play money step tickets so i may continue to grow this just so that i can say i did it or if i start having bad day, then ill donk the play chips instead of my cash :P

Every once in a while I find money in an old winter coat or suit pants pocket after not wearing it for forever. It's a great feeling.

I have never, however, found money in my poker account. Did you find a benefactor who couldn't stand to see you languishing in play chip territory? or did you just look a little deeper into the back pocket of your poker account?

Hahaha no bro, I was staked in a game from a friend and got 27$ cash so we split 50/50 well kinda she gave me 15 and kept the rest for herself. Thank Mommy! (my nick name 4 her)

Sorry if someone already beat me to it but props to you. Just bear in mind that alot of people on play money act like they are playing for play money, and nothing else. Don't care about actually learning, just go all in on everything kind of people. I combat that with I treat my play money like real money. Even when noone else is haha. Especially when I play with buddies. Playing serious usually forces me on top of my buds and they get pissed but hey, whenever i do play for real money now Im already used to not blowing my money on bad hands when ive seen it while playing for play money and lost badly. Thats really the main thing that play money can hone on ya, knowing when to fold em and when to hold em.


Changing my tactics in that department usually helps me out ten-fold.