How to Play KK

So, I'm playing NLHE and I get dealt KK. I don't want to say specifically what my position is (as I'd like feedback on any position) or whether its a cash game or tourney (again, curious of advice for both).

Obviously, its a decent hand, as a AA is the better starting hand, so a part of me wants to raise (which I feel I should), but the other part is thinking how much I raise as someone coming in with Ax and a single A drops, I'm beat.

So, what do you guys do when UTG or in any other position and everyone before you has just limped in. Also, what do you do if someone raises before you get a chance to bet (hinting they may have an A)?

If there is a good article or thread on this already, please feel free to direct me there

I raise the same as i do with any other monster, 2.5x-3x the BB depending on how big the blinds are, i do the same with AA AK QQ....

i usually raise between 3.5 to 4 times blinds. HIgher if there are limpers ahead of me.

I also raise the same amount whether I raise with 10 j suited or AA.

Think about it this way...how much money are you potentially losing if an ace doesn't hit the flop? Ax will hit an ace about 30% of the time, but you'll still win about 70% with your KK. So, there shouldn't be any reason to bet any less when you have a strong hand.

Lets say you play this out a 100x. You bet $3, Ax calls. They bet flop if an ace hits and you fold, you bet if no ace hits and they fold.

So, if you win 70% of the time, you should be making around $210 from your opponent. You'll lose about 30% of the time, so thats a loss of $90. So, you're still profiting.

Now, lets say you decide to only bet $1 out of a 100 situations with this hand. Same rules apply. You win 70% = $70, you lose 30% = $30.

So, you're still profiting at the end but by betting smaller you're not making as much money as you possibly could. By betting $1 instead of $3, you're losing out on $140.

That's a good point, thanks for the replies. So, just to throw it out again. Say you get Pocket Ks and before you have a chance to bet, UTG or UTG+1 raises 3-5x BB. Do you call or fold??

Neither. 3bet. Preflop, we're holding the second nuts - we should always be aggressive w the second nuts unless we have a really good reason to believe Villain has the absolute nuts. An EP open is of course strong - but nobody's so tight that they ONLY open AA in EP.

Now, what to do if we get 4bet pf? SHOVE (I'm assuming 100bb stacks in a cash game - but unless we're deep stacked, this is a no brainer). If he's got AA, it's a cooler - but most micro players will 4bet AK, which makes us around a coinflip against KK+,AK, and w the amount of money in the pot we have odds to get it in.

JJ would be a different scenario.

exactly this. at the micros i would get it in pre flop 99% probably 100% of the time. i played 4,000 hands tonight of 5nl got it in with kk 13 times and lost once to A10. at the micros people get it in with ak, aq, qq all the time so just try to get it in basically lol

If the action does end on the flop, then he would win more than 30% of the time against Ax. If the hand went to showdown, I think KK would win about 70% of the time, so the chance of an ace hitting on the flop has to be less.

Against someone who has shown he would call any raise with ace rags or stuff like QJ, I’d definitely bet it up big. But even at micro levels, I've found those guys are in the minority.

Very good point and something I over looked in my example. My example was meant to be simple and to the point.

At micro-stakes, varying the size of your bet so it's enough to fold out most players holding Ax is a viable option. Changing your bet sizing only matters against those people who both notice and react accordingly. You just won't face that many at micro.

Also, if you give up every time an A flops, you'll be folding the better hand a fair portion of the time. Just because someone called your pre-flop bet doesn't mean you're up against an A. Pick any reasonable range and it will contain a decent proportion of hands that don't include an A.

This is not a disagreement as much as a rant, but what annoys me about this post is that since posting it, I have hit pocket Ks 7 times. All 7 times, I raised 3x BB Pre-flop. All had a couple callers. 5 of the 7 resulted in an Ace on the flop and a raise from a villain. Not sure if this is just my luck atm or what... but I'm still really hating this hand, right now.

You should always be raising preflop with kings, if an ace hits the flop, cbet and fold to reraises and pay attention to people who just call. If they just call check for any straight and flush draws, if there are none I would just give up on the turn, there is nothing they have that doesnt have you beat.

Sometimes you can take the pot right there if you check raise or reraise him with a lone ace on the board if his bet isn't that strong. Keep the raise moderate but still show strength.

Sometimes they'll be betting to see where you're at if they also have pocket pairs (that's what I'd do) and if you represent an ace, they'll fold.

And if they are holding a weak ace, then you may get to see two free cards.

If you get reraised, then fold. It depends on the type of opponent you're up against.

Against loose aggressive players though, I think you are better off shoving it in preflop so you don't have to make a tough decision. You'll win more than 2/3 of the time at least if you get called, so it's worth it.

i normally would say limping is the right choice in early position and hoping to get some action pre flop...raise it up in mid or late position hoping they think my hand is weaker than the actual one....

OP, just cause you get your KK's cracked a couple of times does not mean you should not raise them. Bet the hell out of them and in mirco-limits you will get called by alot worse. You're just hittng a bad streak and seem afraid to play them. They are the second best hand after all.

If you have limpers in front make sure your raising more then 3x.

In mirco-limits when in doubt just shove the dam things. You will win more then you lose in the long run.

In an MTT in early position I would raise 6BB with KK. 3 to 4BB raise seems to have little effect now and I do not want an A rag caller. If somebody calls 6BB I am happy to take my chances. In late position I would probably resuce the raise because although I do not want A rag I do want one caller unless the blinds are large when winning them is worth while.

In a cash game, low stakes, I would raise 3.5BB from any position knowing I will get at least one caller. I want a decent pay off in a cash game.

I disagree with always c-betting KK when an A flops (depends on alot of stuff).... you're turning a hand with great showdown value into a bluff & are setting yourself up to be bluffed off the best hand (ie. villain has JJ, doesn't believe you hold an Ace & chooses to raise your c-bet, &/or float your cbet & bet then turn when checked to). Alot of the time it's better to c/C then cbet imo. (but.. of course 'it depends', lol).

Poker is very situational so it's difficult to put answers 'in a box' as many factors will change what might be considered to be the optimal play in a given situation.

Typically w KK, you're re-raising any preflop betting (but not always, lol), attempting to get headsup with one other opponent.

[quote=Tom1559;1435926]In an MTT in early position I would raise 6BB with KK. 3 to 4BB raise seems to have little effect now and I do not want an A rag caller. If somebody calls 6BB I am happy to take my chances. In late position I would probably resuce the raise because although I do not want A rag I do want one caller unless the blinds are large when winning them is worth while.

quote]

I think we lose a ton of value this way ^ - - we're chasing out hands that we totally crush/are way ahead of that we might win a big pot off of.
(but, of course, 'it depends', lol.... on some tables/sites (cash > micro limits, ie. 10nl)a 5-7x raise preflop is standard, and will often get a decent amount of action, where on others (fulltilt/pokerstars) 3x is much more typical (it's relevant to the table you're playing on).

Tournament-style NLHE, >> raise ~3bb +1bb for each limper in ahead of you. If there's a 3bb raise in ahead of you (in early levels), typically you'd want to reraise to ~3.5x their raise (~11bb's).{this is assuming deepstacked play}

normaly I just go all in if there alot of betting out there that way it kills the number of player in the pot

I've folded KK to an Ace high flop. You know what won that pot? Second pair, no kicker.

Also, I know for a fact that every poker player in the world worth his weight in pretzels has folded a pair of aces at some point in their lives. If he hasn't, he's only worth one third his weight in pretzels.

If you are afraid you're behind, remember aggression can still create fold equity, and put uncertainty into your opponents. If you raise/reraise preflop, then a lot of hands in your range include an ace. If an ace comes out on the flop, you are correct to represent that ace until somebody tells you they hold it.

Let's say for instance, I am holding 78s and have called your preflop raise. I'm on the button.

The flop comes out A86, and the pot is heads up. If you bet on this street, it is possible I will raise sometimes you in case your holdings are KT+,QT+, JT, or PP I think I can get you off of the hand. Also, I would expect a weak ace to fold here as well. If you 3-bet me on the flop, I'll give you credit for a hand that beats me, size up your stack and decide if I want to get my money in bad here, what my outs are, etc.

Now if I have AK and you have KK on that same flop, and you bet, I'm going to call a very good portion of the time. Why? Because against a lot of holdings, I have a vicegrip on the hand, and I don't want to let you know that. If straight and flush draws are present, I will act to protect my hand, but I'm certainly not going to come out and tell you that you're not ahead.

Not necessarily so imo. You're turning a hand w showdown value into a bluff... & are also setting yourself up to be bluffed off the best hand (ie. villain is actually a good player... sees your cbet for what it is... & chooses to re-raise you with his 'JJ'... you fold the KK because villain has shown you he has the best hand??). By checking or check/calling flop we are gaining value from hands we beat on turn &/or river.
(talking tournament play here ^).

Yea, if an ace comes out on the flop I'm check calling if I have kings in that spot.

I'd rather have 32 offsuit!

LOL

I know you were trying to keep it simple.

Type of Game, If tourney where in the the tourney, Number of Players, Position, Chipstack absolute and relative, Your player profile and opponent profiles

Pretty much this is spot on for cash games, especially 6 max. If you get 4 bet pre with 100bb stacks or less, instant shove. If it happens that you run into AA, well, that's ok b/c your odds are over 20-1 against that happening.

Post flop, if an ace lands, still bet the flop aggressively and continue to do so until villain raises. If villain raises, depending on villain and stakes/limits/pot size, it would most likely be time to reevaluate the situation.

This is very true. I guess I have been hitting a bad streak the last couple weeks and wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing. I have shoved once and got called with AA, so I guess this has put a little fear into this starting hand.

Thanks for the advice though. Getting beat multiple times with A rags got me wondering if there was value in calling raises.

I'm hoping I'll land 2 kings again, so i can try out some of this advice.

What is this ^ supposed to infer? I don't understand the nature of your comment... please explain.

I think he means that he could easily lay down 32o.

In this situation of KK, I usually increase 3 times the big blind,
so I have a possible adversity if there is any on the flop, but also able
be competing with QQ, JJ, XX, etc ... therefore see excellent chance of winning this hand

I raise 3x or 4x when I get KK, then if flop its friendly based on the table , I do another small raise for not scare people, if its a room without aggressive players I rather call and let ppl think they got best hand, and then raise.

I was going to raise a similar question, but I think this is a decent place to put it. In micro stakes (hell, just totally in general) how often do you think it's correct to fold kings? I guess we can remove satellite tournaments and the double-or-nothing types here.

I ask because in around 5k hands at 10NL there have been 2 instances where I considered folding K's preflop. In one of them I actually did (I know, let's not get into how how amazing that play is right now) and regretted it immediately after. In the other I shoved and ran into AA's. I'm wondering if treating a 4-bet+ from most small stakes players as AA's is reasonable or not?

As to how you play KK's, it's all situational ofc. But the hand is the 2nd nuts preflop...so in general you should tend to be more aggressive there to build a pot and limit the hands you're playing against. How you accomplish those things depends on position (EP limps can accomplish this with suitably aggro opposition...or can be suicide without it) and how others play.

I guess the biggest tip Ive got out of this so far is not playing scared with KKs and not worrying so much about an A falling. Statistically, its more bad luck if you lose this hand playing aggressive then probable. Playing scared never gets you anywhere with any hand, right?

KK cracked my AA twice tonight

When playing with KK with opening bets of

2X
3x
4X
5X
and 6X BB from multiple postions and typically medain chipstack
resulted in no calls

All in bet did get called by AA

conclusion I don't know either

This is a good way to look at it. In poker, we're looking to get our money in as a favorite, not as a lock (well, you can play this way, but this type of play does not optimize returns, and usually results in tight/passive play, typically a losing style over the long term). Preflop, AA is the only hand we really fear (all Ax hands have 3 outs to beat us pf), and the chances of another player holding exactly AA when we're holding KK are slim (5% if I remember right).

This doesn't mean we necessarily turn our brains off postflop, but preflop it's a mistake to fold KK.