Hitting 2nd best pair on the flop

#1 16th August 2010, 2:04 PM

Hi Guys/Gals,
I'm fairly newish to poker been playing about 6 months,id like to know what strategy folks use to gain information if they've hit 2nd best pair on the flop,if im 1st to act i mostly bet half the pot size,if the villan calls i never know whether he/she has hit top pair and just slow playing me,or they've hit the 3rd best pair on the flop.
The other situation id like to know is,if the villan puts a bet in after seeing the flop,do i call or re-raise to gain information that he/she has really got the top pair.

Cheers

#2 16th August 2010, 2:29 PM

It really depends on the type of opponent you're up against, if it's a calling station you should be betting your marginal hands (which if you play a recommended tight and aggressive game should be a high pair).

It's hard to answer your question because of all the different possible scenarios.

You could post a hand or two to illustrate which specific situations are giving you the most trouble

#3 16th August 2010, 6:32 PM

I treat 2nd best pair as top pair with 1 or 2 other players in the hand depending on the situation, and with more players I'll definitely be more cautious.

#4 16th August 2010, 7:53 PM

raise, see where they stand, if they re-pop you call to see the turn. Bet again, if they re-raise you, then more then likely they have you. They saw you call their raise and if think you are not going anywhere.

#5 16th August 2010, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOne2Watch

raise, see where they stand, if they re-pop you call to see the turn. Bet again, if they re-raise you, then more then likely they have you. They saw you call their raise and if think you are not going anywhere.

Lol wat?!

A wise man once told me "it depends", and that certainly applies here. The preflop actions, and reads on our opponents matter a lot, especially with medium strength hands like these.

#6 16th August 2010, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOne2Watch

raise, see where they stand, if they re-pop you call to see the turn. Bet again, if they re-raise you, then more then likely they have you. They saw you call their raise and if think you are not going anywhere.

Do you play at Full Tilt? I would love you at my table!

Flatting a 3(or 4)-bet with middle pair (not taking anything else into account) is genius! <sarcasm>

Seriously though, unless you have a seriously deeep stack (in a cash game perhaps), you should not be doing this.

#7 17th August 2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOne2Watch

raise, see where they stand, if they re-pop you call to see the turn. Bet again, if they re-raise you, then more then likely they have you. They saw you call their raise and if think you are not going anywhere.

Write a book?

#8 17th August 2010, 12:53 PM

Pot control>Raising for information

Obviously there are about a million factors that are going to alter what we do, but if you're in position the best option is usually going to be to check or call.
If you're OOP... well, I tend to take aggressive lines even with these hands but I don't think that's entirely sane. There are however extremely few reasons to play passively OOP so keeping your range even a little balanced when taking those lines is difficult.

Edit: The above is assuming we're talking about cash games. Although I do still disagree with betting to gain information even if you're asking about tournaments.

#9 18th August 2010, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOne2Watch

raise, see where they stand, if they re-pop you call to see the turn. Bet again, if they re-raise you, then more then likely they have you. They saw you call their raise and if think you are not going anywhere.

Don't play like that! It will cost you too many chips. I try to avoid big pots with middle pair, sometimes even top pair. The key is to put your opponent on a hand, if you think your opponent out hit you on the flop simply fold. If you think you out hit them on the flop, throw a small bet with your middle pair to try and get some information. Then throw a continuation bet on the turn, if you believe you still have the best hand or that you could steal the pot. Good luck!

#10 24th August 2010, 7:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOne2Watch

raise, see where they stand, if they re-pop you call to see the turn. Bet again, if they re-raise you, then more then likely they have you. They saw you call their raise and if think you are not going anywhere.

If they raise your turn bet you have lost what, a solid 30+ BBs just trying to find out if your 2ndPr is good?

I don't mind betting for information, and I certainly don't mind raising for information, but calling a raise hoping to hit one of five presumable outs is... Bad.

Calling a bet, less so. But still it's arguable calling a bet with 2nd pr is -EV. I'd be looking at implied odds and strength of my villain's hand, however there's not enough information out there to tell me what play I would take.

Stack sizes, board texture, players in hand, reads, table image, what my kicker is?

But of course, it depends.

#11 24th August 2010, 2:54 PM

I'm far from an expert, but it all depends on your opponent: their betting patterns, position, stack size, etc. If I am uncertain but can still see the turn for cheap, then I give it a go, otherwise I have no hesitation to fold. As already mentioned, pot control is key. Harrington says: raise strong hands, call/check middling, and fold weak...seems to work for me, once all the other details are taken into consideration.

#12 24th August 2010, 9:37 PM

Sorry, meant to say limp/fold weak hands.

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