HEY GUYS/GALS: What would you do on this play...

#1 20th June 2009, 10:11 PM

You are in a big tournament, you are below the average stack with T13000 in chips. Blinds are at 150/300. Not near placing in the money, still realitivley close to the beginning of the tourney.

You are in the SB with 66

Folded around to 1 off the button - he is the short stack and moves all in with T1600. You figure he could have anything. Button folds.

It is on you....

In the BB is the chip leader of the entire tournament (3,000 entries), who doubled up twice recently with AA and KK. ( I figured him to have somewhere around T75,000, perhaps more) Seems like a solid player, but don't have any real read on him yet - you just recently got moved to the table.

what do you do and why...

#2 20th June 2009, 11:19 PM

Uh, i'd call. You have a good sized stack and 66 against a range of 66+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+ (just guessing not really sure if this is his shoving range) it's almost a coin flip. If the BB makes a squeeze play then just let it go but if he does call hopefully he'll check it down so at least one of you guys can knock out the shortstack

#3 21st June 2009, 7:54 AM

I think flat calling is a big mistake because that just gives BB better pot odds to see the flop, and with a stack that huge hes likely to call with any 2 reasonable cards and see if he can make something out of it.

The best play here is to isolate with a raise of around 5k which should hopefully kick BB out unless hes a complete donk or actually has something. Also keep in mind that even though you are below the average you still have quite a considerable amount of chips left compared to the blinds(even if you lose this hand) so your NOT that deperate yet.

#4 21st June 2009, 8:09 AM

just fold it imo....wait for a better spot

#5 21st June 2009, 8:33 AM

I'd move all-in to isolate. But it depends on your table-image. I play tight, so people are gonna figure me for a big hand. If you're loose, the BB might put you on a so-so hand and call.

#6 21st June 2009, 8:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PattyR

just fold it imo....wait for a better spot

No folding is the worst possible play. I agree with raising to 5K to isolate, imo 4k should be enough. If the BB calls, then you have to hope he checks it down or you hit a set. If BB tries to squeeze, then you have to fold. Kinda hard when you don't have any reads on the BB with the big stack. The reason you don't want to fold is the SS can have a wide range of hands, that you can beat. He could be shoving with almost anything to try and steal here. But, you can't call, cause you don't want the BB in the hand either.

#7 21st June 2009, 8:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulieK

I'd move all-in to isolate. But it depends on your table-image. I play tight, so people are gonna figure me for a big hand. If you're loose, the BB might put you on a so-so hand and call.

Moving all in here is just ridiculous, you are close to the money and the BB is only calling if he has you beat or overs that can possible beat you. No sense in coin flipping for your tourney life when all you are doing is trying to isolate. If he's going to call a 4k raise, he will call the all in. Moving all in there is worse than folding.

#8 21st June 2009, 9:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriggaLos

Moving all in here is just ridiculous, you are close to the money and the BB is only calling if he has you beat or overs that can possible beat you. No sense in coin flipping for your tourney life when all you are doing is trying to isolate. If he's going to call a 5k raise, he will call the all in. Moving all in there is worse than folding.

actually in the OP he states its the near the BEGINNING of the tourney and NOT NEAR placing in the money.

i take back my original reply i thought that the guy who had moved all in had more chips than you and that it would have cost you your entire tourney to call him. therefore i said to fold and wait for a better spot.

#9 21st June 2009, 9:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriggaLos

Moving all in here is just ridiculous, you are close to the money and the BB is only calling if he has you beat or overs that can possible beat you. No sense in coin flipping for your tourney life when all you are doing is trying to isolate. If he's going to call a 5k raise, he will call the all in. Moving all in there is worse than folding.

how can moving all in be worse than folding when you said that folding is the worst possible play?

#10 21st June 2009, 9:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PattyR

how can moving all in be worse than folding when you said that folding is the worst possible play?

Didn't think someone would say move all in. So I was wrong, there was another worst possible play. Sorry

#11 21st June 2009, 10:02 AM

My 2 cents: raise to isolate and fold if met with an over the top re-raise by BB

edit: BTW, pushing is, by far, worse than folding

#12 22nd June 2009, 7:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgomez89

Uh, i'd call. You have a good sized stack and 66 against a range of 66+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+ (just guessing not really sure if this is his shoving range) it's almost a coin flip. If the BB makes a squeeze play then just let it go but if he does call hopefully he'll check it down so at least one of you guys can knock out the shortstack

His 'Shoving Range'?? He's on 5bb's. I'd say his range is ALOT wider than that.

#13 22nd June 2009, 8:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinedown.45

raise to isolate and fold if met with an over the top re-raise by BB

... His range is going to be really big being he only had 5 BBs left so pkt 6s are most likely beating him @ this point...

#14 22nd June 2009, 9:21 AM

So here's my thinking about the proposed options:

Go All-In --- This is the worst play in the proposed scenario. The BB's got you covered by a whole lot (He's Tourney leader and you're under average) and is likely to play the hand with over cards, call you, and hit a pair and take you out.

Fold --- This isn't all that unreasonable. This short stack doesn't have to make this bet... he's got free hands all around the table to pick the best hand he's dealt and go all-in on that, so I imagine he's hit a good hand here. Unless he's a passionate player on tilt and just pushed all in, which I wouldn't count on.

Raise 4k-5k --- Not a bad play, although if you're dealing with the chip leader I imagine they'll call that with a semi-decent hand which opens you to seeing a high flop and being forced to call a large bet form the BB.

I'd personally fold here... 6's just aren't that high imo.
*Great post OP, interesting scenario*

#15 22nd June 2009, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozzington

So here's my thinking about the proposed options:

Go All-In --- This is the worst play in the proposed scenario. The BB's got you covered by a whole lot (He's Tourney leader and you're under average) and is likely to play the hand with over cards, call you, and hit a pair and take you out.

agreed

Fold --- This isn't all that unreasonable. This short stack doesn't have to make this bet... he's got free hands all around the table to pick the best hand he's dealt and go all-in on that, so I imagine he's hit a good hand here. Unless he's a passionate player on tilt and just pushed all in, which I wouldn't count on.

The short stack is making this bet because there is only two player to act after him, and he wants the blinds. If he has a monster hand like AA or KK, why would he shove?? He could have us beat with a larger pp, but for the price and the fact that he is doing that with a wide range, folding is not an option.

Raise 4k-5k --- Not a bad play, although if you're dealing with the chip leader I imagine they'll call that with a semi-decent hand which opens you to seeing a high flop and being forced to call a large bet form the BB.

We only have one player acting after us, we can't make our decisions hoping he doesn't have a bigger hand than us all the time. So we need to make a move to build our stack. We already said we can't call, and folding being worried that the BB could have something is just insane. Think of what the BB is thinking, an all in, a re-raise behind it. He's only calling or shoving with a better hand and we know this. So we re-raise to isolate with the intention of folding if the BB decides to squeeze us.

I'd personally fold here... 6's just aren't that high imo.
*Great post OP, interesting scenario*

You don't make it deep in a tourney if you don't make moves to get you there. Waiting for the premium hands only gets you so far. you have to take chances with calculated risks to be successful and profitable.

#16 22nd June 2009, 9:49 PM

I'm with folding...

the best you could get out of that hand is kicking out the short stack which would give you his 1600 chips and roughly a 1 to 8 chance of getting double that sum if you flat call and BB calls too and you flop a set.
if you raise you either:
1)isolate and still have the same chance to win those 1600
2)get called and have a reasonable chance of losing (66 are only 43% against 2 players with random cards) a bigger amount since you raised
3)get reraised by the BB and having to fold, which is again, losing your raise amount

you got more to lose than to win here

#17 22nd June 2009, 10:46 PM

I'm with Patty & Chop. Don't really know if I want to isolate what is conceivably a higher pair than mine to begin with, nevermind the coinflip with 2 overcards. I love a set mine as much as, well, even more than the next guy. But with a 5x+ BB raise folded to me, don't think I like my chances - especially with the big-stack BB left to act. The only hint that the BB stacked up w/AA and KK works in your favor, as he didn't get there from bluffing or loose calls, so that bodes well he might fold to 'normal junk'. Still, 66 is worrisome. If it were me in that crippled stack, I call. You are just below average, save it.

#18 22nd June 2009, 11:54 PM

I'll go with the just call side of the family on this one. Your already under ave. stack, so why commit more chips than you have to with the big stack on your left? If he raises you then you can let go of it. But if you raise to 5k you're risking too much of YOUR stack just to isolate with a medium strength hand. If your read on the big stack is wrong, and he makes a loose call and hits, you're probably following the small stack out the door.

#19 23rd June 2009, 12:05 AM

I'm new at this, but I make a pot raise.

I wouldn't be feeling too confident with just 66, but I would want to see the flop without losing my shirt in the process. If the BB made an over the top re-raise, I'd probably fold since he has only been playing solid hands.

#20 23rd June 2009, 2:05 AM

All u got is 66, u have 2 outs to improve. It is only about 12% of your stack.

If you could be sure BB isn't joining the pot, I'd call. But if you call here and BB does join, he would be insane not to put the real onus on you by tripling your raise.

I normally fold this in a heart beat, unless I'm the chip leader. At best your in a race, at worst, you are crushed.

It just isn't worth it to put your money up against a shove here. Learn to lets these go.

IMHO

#21 23rd June 2009, 2:34 AM

btw, was this an actual hand? would be interesting to know how it went eventually

#22 23rd June 2009, 6:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divebitch

I'm with Patty & Chop. Don't really know if I want to isolate what is conceivably a higher pair than mine to begin with, nevermind the coinflip with 2 overcards. I love a set mine as much as, well, even more than the next guy. But with a 5x+ BB raise folded to me, don't think I like my chances - especially with the big-stack BB left to act. The only hint that the BB stacked up w/AA and KK works in your favor, as he didn't get there from bluffing or loose calls, so that bodes well he might fold to 'normal junk'. Still, 66 is worrisome. If it were me in that crippled stack, I call. You are just below average, save it.

It's a short stacker that was folded to in LP, he is making that shove with a very wide range of hands. We are most likely ahead right now, so the best play is to go HU with him. And how do we ensure this, we have to isolate here with one more player to act behind us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crow27

I'll go with the just call side of the family on this one. Your already under ave. stack, so why commit more chips than you have to with the big stack on your left? If he raises you then you can let go of it. But if you raise to 5k you're risking too much of YOUR stack just to isolate with a medium strength hand. If your read on the big stack is wrong, and he makes a loose call and hits, you're probably following the small stack out the door.

Calling is a horrible play. If you call you are giving the BB the right price to tag along. We don't want a three way pot here, we want a HU pot. If we just call and the BB tags along and a bunch of overs flop, what are we going to do? So, if you are going to just call, you might as well fold. You need to isolate to ensure a HU pot!!!

#23 26th June 2009, 9:28 PM

Unless im missing something, this is an easy scenario. ULTRA wide shove range from the orig raiser, which 66 is beating, and iso raising to 4100 is about 30% of our stack(which is pot-commiting), so all in.

edit: Forgot to include the dynamic of the big blind... dont be scared of what the big blind MIGHT have. If the BB wakes up to a big hand, calls, and wins, then thats just unlucky. Play to win. Shove.

#24 26th June 2009, 10:20 PM

i flat call here. i'm not really looking to isolate the short stack. i figure with him i'm either flipping or way behind. i do however got a pretty good hand that got some pot odds now if i call and the big stack calls behind. you can have some pretty great implied odds here. i also dont like the isolation play because it may dont work. you IMO its a play better used later in a tourney with higher reward. obv. if i were the big stack then i wouldnt mind the isolation play. here its either fold or call. you pocket pair is too good to fold here IMO. i could care less for the 1300 or whatever chips here. i want a cheap shot at the big stack.

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