help on putting pot odds into practice

OK I have been wondering about this all day.

On the flop I am first to act. I have 2 high cards and a possible straight. After discouting, I figure these to be worth 5 outs. This gives me about a 20% chance of hitting my outs by the river .. or 4:1

To hit on the turn its 10% or 9:1

So firstly do I call with the intention of folding on the turn if I dont hit?
Do I call with the intention of re-evaluating on the turn.. i.e. I only proceed with sufficient odds at that point or do I call with the intention of calling the river also?


Second.. and this is what I have been wondering about.. If I were to make a C-bet on the flop.. do I do that with these odds in mind.. or do I just bet out, see what happens and then look at odds at that point?

I do understand what pot odds are.. but Its applying them in my game thats the problem.. often I am raising without necissary pot odds and taking down the pot.. but is this correct play?

Also just thinking here, but do pot odds even apply when you raise or are they only really applicable when calling a raise?

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated guys.

Well first, you weren't very specific with your hand in the example. when you say high cards, I'm going to assume you meant overcards to the flop, say KQ or something. And when you say you have a straight draw, not sure if you meant an open ended or gutshot draw. Also not sure about how many people in the hand/raises preflop etc. Being heads up or in a 4 way pot makes a huge difference on your % chance to win.But if you have 2 high overcards and an open ended straight draw you actually have a lot more than 5 outs. But to answer your question about pot odds, you cant just bet a 5th of the pot when you're 20% to win, 10th of the pot when u think you're 10% to win. People (good people) are going to realize you're weak every time you bet small, and have a hand every time you bet big. I love people like that, because you always know exactly where you're at in the hand. In your example, say you raised preflop and you're hads up with 2 overcards and a straight draw. Go ahead and bet 3/4 of the pot. Chances are either the other guy will fold, or the times when he does call you still have outs. Betting your draws also helps mix up your play, because say for example you raiesed preflop with ak suited. And the flop comes 2hearts 4hearts 8clubs. Chances are your opponent didn't hit the flop, and if he didn't call your raise with a pair he'll probably fold. And if another heart does come, he's probably not as likely to put you on a flush since you bet out, instead of check calling and then betting when the flush came, like most people do. So the way I play, it's really a lot about implied odds. See the thing is, if you raise and your opponent folds, it really doesn't matter if you had 27 or AA. You still win the pot. That's where skill comes into poker, watching your opponetns play and seeing who folds easily, who always calls. Against the people who always call obviously you have to have some sort of draw or a hand, but if you know they're not going to fold easily you know that your implied odds are really good against them. Say you have an ace high flush draw, 20% chance to win. and to call his bet you're only getting 3 to 1, instead of the 5 to 1 you need on the flop. Well that can still be a good call, as long as you think you can get the extra money on the turn or the river if you hit. That's implied odds. And knowing when you can do that only comes from experience and carefully watching your opponents play.

Thanks for the reply.

TBH the exact hand isnt of any importance.

OK we'll say KQo if thats makes it clearer

on a board of T92 rainbow

Personally I dont think you do have more than about 5 outs here.. I did say that I was discounting some outs.

a J on the turn/river would make me a straight, but not the nut straight.

The over cards could pair but they also help others to make staights.

Therefore I gave 4 outs for the J but discounted the overcards to 1/2 out each. Giving me 5 outs. I think its a mistake to value them as full outs as how would you react to a board like that if you did pair the queen and got raised serverely on the turn? Would you not figure a staight as a posibility?

Therefore It is certainly worth continuing as long as the price is cheap.


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So 5 outs!!! but as I said before the hand and counting of odds is not really of any importance to the question.

Do I even look at pot odds before placing a standard C-Bet of 1/2 - 3/4 pot?

or do I only take into account pot odds once that has been reraised?

Im now thinking its the latter but would like confirmation of this from the group.

I understand that if I were to bet small on weak hands and big on strong ones i'd be telling others what I have. That wasnt really where I was going with looking at pot odds compared to outs prior to the C-bet

I was thinking that maybe a c-bet should only be made as long as the hand had reasonable chances of developing if the c-bet were called. The c-bet size would not reflect outs but simply a hand with say 2 outs only would be checked then folded and not c-betted. A hand with say 5 outs+ would be c-betted. Now im unsure this is true.

Does this make my question a bit clearer?

Thanks

I'll take a stab at this discussion, but you raise some interesting points that I'm not positive about -- so it's worth discussing, right?

First off, the original reply mentioned an open-ended straight draw has more than 5 outs, so that makes sense. Your example wasn't open-ended.

With the c-bet, I think you are trying to take the pot down right there. If you can get your heads-up opponent to fold 1 out of 3 times with a 1/2 pot c-bet, you break even (or you do better with antes included). But before you decide to c-bet, you have to take a look at the texture of the flop. In your example, the T9 plays into a lot of straights (your hand included), so you need to be careful. Maybe it's not the best flop to c-bet. You could check and hope for a free or inexpensive card.

When calculating pot odds, you are either betting an amount to give your opponent a chance to make a mistake by calling with insufficient odds or you are trying to draw to a hand that doesn't cost you more than your odds of making the hand. I think that goes for the turn and the river separately, not together. My understanding of implied odds is that it only comes into consideration if you don't have the correct odds to call on, say, the turn, but you figure it's worth it for the times you do hit and will win a very large pot. Your opponent's stack size comes into to play here, since if they don't have a large enough one, you won't win enough to make up for all the times you don't make your hand or you do and lose anyway.

I don't think that c-betting is contingent on how many outs your hand might have. It's just continuing your pre-flop aggression, saying you're still strong. Assuming the flop misses most hands, your opponent will most likely fold with nothing. 1 out of 3 is all it takes. But most important in deciding to c-bet is the texture of the flop. High cards in the flop that don't pair your hand, or flush-draws, or likely straights-draw are flops that maybe you shouldn't c-bet. Let your opponent take the lead and then decide whether you have the correct odds to continue. Of course, you need to vary your play, so your opponents won't assume a check means your weak. And if your value bets and c-bets are close to the same, they won't know what to make of it.

if your playing NLHE and you don't understand pots odds and are still winning.... you should really take a look at this... http://www.cardschat.com/odds-for-dummies.php
adding this to your game would add so much more to your win rate


because, if what you say is true, either your doing it without knowing (experience) or you're extremely lucky so far and the odds are bound to catch up