Going up against two pair

#1 4th February 2009, 4:09 AM

This is one of the hardest things to go up against, at least for me because i tend to over look it. For example,

i'm sitting in middle position with big slick of clubs, i raise it about 4-5xbb since the blinds were just 10/20. 3 people call. The flop comes up Qs 6s Ah. So damn, i thought i had it made unless someone had trips. So the guy who was first bet 120, the next guy folded so i reraised to 500, then the guy raised all in(about 1200 or something so i called, putting me all in. He had A6o. Nothing hit for me so i lost.

So my question is, how would you guys have dealt with that or how can one read that?

#2 4th February 2009, 6:36 AM

In early tourney play, several players will call raises with speculative hands for implied odds. The range for this call is generally small to medium pocket pairs (larger pairs will generally re-raise), suited connectors, and medium/small A's.

I think your raise on the flop is too big - if he's flopped AA like you or QQ, he'll call or fold to 360 (even less, probably) just as often as he will to 500.

Once he shoves, though, this is a fairly easy fold for me - you had a multi-way flop and it's easy to believe it hit somebody hard - he's usually not shoving the flush draw, you're representing a willingness to build a big pot with big slick or better, so, when he shoves, he's generally got at least 2 pair (though AsXs is also a good possibility - top pair nut flush draw). You're ahead of any A with an unpaired kicker other than another big slick, but you're behind on everything else.

#3 4th February 2009, 6:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slycbnew

In early tourney play, several players will call raises with speculative hands for implied odds. The range for this call is generally small to medium pocket pairs (larger pairs will generally re-raise), suited connectors, and medium/small A's.

I think your raise on the flop is too big - if he's flopped AA like you or QQ, he'll call or fold to 360 (even less, probably) just as often as he will to 500.

Once he shoves, though, this is a fairly easy fold for me - you had a multi-way flop and it's easy to believe it hit somebody hard - he's usually not shoving the flush draw, you're representing a willingness to build a big pot with big slick or better, so, when he shoves, he's generally got at least 2 pair (though AsXs is also a good possibility - top pair nut flush draw). You're ahead of any A with an unpaired kicker other than another big slick, but you're behind on everything else.

wow that was awesome, thanks

thanks a lot guys, really good stuff here

#4 4th February 2009, 8:38 AM

I don't know how else you could of played that. You played it correctly pre-flop raising. Unfortunately there are donks out there willing to play their A Rags like Pocket Aces. For some reason they just don't want to fold them away pre-flop even with a good raise. Better luck next time man.

#5 4th February 2009, 12:12 PM

its a definite fold ,if you dont hit reasonabnly well with ak then its tuff decision time,in a multiway pot with someone betting out before you someones hit a hand ,folding ak is not nice for me but all things being equal playing ace rag is a leak in your game and you will lose with it more than win with it . 99 times out of 100 your slick would of stood up, keep solid hand values regardless of short term luck variance

#6 4th February 2009, 5:50 PM

Thats a fold... By the sounds of things you did the right thing by putting 120 in to pot as a tester but by the time the raise you should fold with out thinking about that.

#7 4th February 2009, 10:08 PM

itd hard to read 2 pair because sometime people raise preflop to mask their low pockets. The best course of action is to make them react to you
instead of you react to them imo.

#8 5th February 2009, 8:45 AM

It's a difficult situation if you don't have a solid read on the villian, especially if it's a low-buyin tourney in the early blind stages. You have to ask yourself whether the villian is capable of making that move with a weaker ace? And if so you still need to consider that AQ has got you, as well as a set mined pair of 6's. In my amateur opinion this is a fold as the only hands in his range you beat are A 10, A J, and unless he's a complete donk he might even be shoving with JJ? I dunno.

#9 5th February 2009, 9:04 AM

ak running into someone that flops 2 pair with arags is a tough situation

the only real way to be able to tell something is up, is how aggressive they play it vs how aggressive they have been playing

if it is a donk, that always shoves top pair, regardless of kicker, then it is just a standard loss
nothing you can do about it and in tourneys, these types of situations will knock you out over and over (more common for me is my two pair running into a set or even worse, set over set)

#10 5th February 2009, 10:25 PM

I agree, your pre-flop raise was correct, but unless he's one of those lucky creeps who raise with J5o or go allin with 57 suited, I'd fold to a shove. It was too early in the tournament for you to have a good read on this guy.

There are too many hands that can beat you here. Granted, I've won lots of pots like that from people with A-rags or a pair of spades, but in a tournament, especially in the early rounds, your goal is to survive. Doubling up is wonderful, but you only do that if you have the REAL nuts, like an A high straight (no pairs on table, no straight flush possibilities) or Full House. Big Slick is a great starting hand, but always be prepared to fold it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by odinscott

(more common for me is my two pair running into a set or even worse, set over set)

YES! For me, playing two pair is real scary, especially with two suited cards on the table...

#11 8th February 2009, 1:29 AM

yeah i hear what u r sayin.I will raise over to then button With big slick and they will call usually.The flop will come A 9 7.So at this point im thinkin im pretty good so i bet 350 or so and get raised.So then i am goin crazy tryin to figure out what he/she's holdin(99 79 a7) then i say f it and next thing i know 79 slamms me in that face.I guess that is part of playin in freerolls.I think i am doin the right thing but that is part of my game that needs work.is it smart to go with your first instinct or let all the doubt and other things control my mind and game??????

#12 10th February 2009, 11:25 AM

i overplay ak all the time ,at least you hit an ace on flop !, i lost most of my stack last mtt i played trying to be aggressive with ak ,like a total div ,after my initial raise being called i missed on the flop ,made a c-bet half pot,got called ,checked called turn to large bet (even though i missed ,so i have ace high!!!thats all,)then at lastthe river brings another rag! i check call again (like a mug) to be shown my opponents j7 that paired a 7 on the turn!!his odd betting style(as he was as bad a player as i was ) caused me to not believe his cards. moral of story is dont overplay ak like i did ,but then im an awful player !

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