Folding Trip Aces

Hi Guys

I need you opinions on a play that I made the other day. In hindsight I wish I had called but as they say hindsight is a wonderful thing. i have only been playing live poker since March this year so still learning all the terms etc so bear with me.

I play once a week down the local pub which has a weekly tournament and a league, I participate in both. Recently this hand happened.

I was dealt pocket aces, the blinds at this stage were 2 4 with my stack just below a thousand and what would become my opponents stack at just over a thousand. We all start with a thousand at the start of the night.

I decided as this was the second level of the blinds I would slow play the pocket aces, my turn came to act so I decided to raise.bet to ten, the person directly after me folded the guy after him called and the rest folded.

The flop came J,A,Q at this stage I was more than happy with the flop and for the moment considered that I could not be beat. Trip aces wow I decided to continue with the slow play and this time bet 30. My opponent called the raise. The next card to come basically ruined my good mood. The turn card was a ten. I decided to bet 30, I would have called a small raise but my opponent decided to go all in.

With this move I considered that he had a king making the straight. He had more chips than me, had I called I would have been going home early. If I was just in the weekly tournament that would have been fine but I am also in the league and would have been the first league member out losing valuable points in the league table. I am currently third in the league and wanted to stay as close to that position as possible.

I took a long time to think about what to do how this guy had played previous hands etc and decided he definitely had a king. I asked him if I folded would he show me his hand? He said yes, with that I decided yep he has a king and folded my trip aces. The reaction I got I may as well dropped my trousers in the middle of the pub and shouted look at this!

To cut a long story short most of the pub called me mental, crazy and basically an idiot. They said I should never have no way folded trip aces. OK fair enough in most situations / flops I would agree but with the texture of the board I really thought the guy had a king and had he my fold would probably have been considered a good read.

What I want to know is was I a total idiot? I do actually feel like one and totally regret my move, it wont actually leave my thoughts?

Deselby

It's almost close because it's such an asinine bet if he has a straight. But really, calling off almost T1000 with blinds at 2/4 (??????) on a board with 4 to a straight is pretty bad.

note 1: When you ask someone if they'll show if you fold and they say yes, it often means they want you to fold.

note 2: With an Ace on the flop, there is a straight draw 100% of the time.

note 3: When you have a pocket pair and hit three of a kind on the flop, it's commonly referred to as a set. Trips is when you have Ax and the board has AAx.

blinds are 2/4 or 20/40?????? 2/4 seems wierd for a 1000 chips.
why slowplay a set on a scary board like that? calling a raise PF, villain either has PP, or broadway cards like nearly all the time, that flop you've got to bet enough to get him away from straight draws.

To expound on what Dog is saying....
Don't feel bad about folding there (it was a big lay down, be proud you could actually do it) - Feel bad about slow playing on that draw heavy board. When you flop a set and the board has a flush or straight draw on it (especially a broadway cause they are coming in the hand with those big cards) you have to protect your hand. What will beat a set? A straight or a flush of course. So you have to make it NOT worth their while to see more cards (a T on the turn).

And when someone asks you if you show, of course say they yes - or sounds like you are hiding something (so u better have the nuts).

Thanks for the response guys, just to clarify we start the night with a thousand in chips, the blinds start at 1/2 and double up every 15 mins so we were on the second level. I have only ever played one tournament outside of this pub so not to sure if this is a popular structure or not.

I agree that the guy going all in at this stage of the night was a total shock and for that reason considered his hand must have been really good. I am assuming he didn't expect a call and wanted to take the pot their and then with his hand.

Can I ask then in future play and I understand different blind levels may require a different approach but if I flop a set how much would you generally raise to protect this hand? and part two of the question if the guy had called or gone all in what would my response then be? I honestly think that night I would have still folded as he may have started with K10 or would you be prepared to take that risk and put the loss had it accurred down to just bad luck?

Deselby

structure is shocking, ive never heard of one like it. usual is 100 big blinds at the start, so should be 5/10, then 10/20 etc, but not doublled every level.

As for flopping a set, it depends, if board is safe for you, you wanna bet enough for villain to come along to the river(value bets), if it has draws, bet enough to discourage draw-chasers. If board pairs on turn/river, revert to value-betting. thats my take on it anyway, probably wrong.

Exactly what dog said, if there was one of two scary boards for top set is is that one (the other being three of a suit don't have). Firstly you seem to have been on the button? A little more healthy preflop raise may have saved you the trouble and bought you some blinds. I know you wanted to extract some value from these aces but that seems to be the only value you could have gotten. Further so early on in the game it would be setting a nice example of you as table cap. Secondly once that flop came in I would have made it exceptionally pricey to draw to that str8. That being said there is no gaurantee that you still wouldn't be called but your opponent may even have think that you flopped the joint and let it go. Either way seems like another story of slowplay gone bad, sux , gives you that pukey feeling but so it goes and why I love poker. As for the amount to protect that hand pot if not slightly over.

While I prolly wudda folded as well, but....... it's such a stupid bet. It's been my experience when an experienced player pushes in that situation, that they are trying (late I might add) to protect a weak hand, missed draw or just hit a second pair (trips).

An inexperienced player would most definitely push the second that Broadway hits.


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I have not been playing that long ( maybe a year or so both online and live ) so I dont know if this helps. I agree with someone earlier posting you should be happy you can lay it down. Someone who has the fortitude to throw it away when they know they are beat earns my respect.
However, what was he doing tells wise ?? was he giving any good clues to what he may or may not have had ? What were the other players doing ? making comments or otherswise indicating they had a king in their hand ? Lot of different variables to consider.
I like to watch everything except the cards ( within reason ) when the betting and or moving around is taking place. A lot of people if they had a good hand will start moving around in their seat , shaking their heads or even making comments such as " damnit I had the king " or some goofy comment. Aside from that a nice raise after the flop may have given you a better idea of what this guy had !!..... Even if you were beat or if you had him you can look back and try to pick up on what could have been done differently. I guess thats why you here asking questions so that is a good sign. Dont tilt too much on it.

I don't see how raising pre is 'slowplay'.. & betting POT on the flop is 'slowplay' either??
Ridiculous deepstacks here w 250bb's... the other player's MASSIVE overshove on turn when there's 4 to a straight (~960 into a ~110chip pot).. seems totally insane. I'm assuming he's a total rookie & always has the K here (but why does he ship over 8x pot?.. d'oh!).
Happily fold here in this spot, knowing we're still extremely deep & there should be LOTS of spots to take villain's chips if he's playing this bad.

Confusing me? How is this an example of a 'slowplay gone bad'?? HERO bets "POT" on the flop with Topset. How much do ya figure he should bet here?

@orifice nm i misread. That is an insane amount of chips for that amount level of blinds.For some reason i thought op said 20/40
@op don't tilt yerself on this one was a smart laydown, really even though I think they were full of it and shoving maybe even a smaller set shoving that much into a teeny pot is just donkish.

Snap folding to this humongous overbet on the turn. If he made the same bet on the flop, I'd have a very hard time folding because there's lower sets/2 pair hands that he could do this with. Even if he flopped the straight, we have a redraw to a boat.

But on the turn, with the 4 to straight board, there's a slim to none chance he doesn't have broadway.

Tell wise the opponent has previously been a solid player and would only make, from my observation a move like this if he has the goods,

I like the tip about looking and observing other people at the table. This was an intense situation for me and I probably got blinkered here and only concentrated on what the all in guy was doing. In future I will be looking around more.

Its also funny and educational how this hand put me on tilt not just for that night but for a couple of days after. That's crazy I know so hopefully this has taught me that if I deem it necessary I can make big lay down and also get over the tilt situations a lot quicker. Coming on here and discussing this hand has helped, thanks to all.

Roll on Thursday so I can get back down the pub and make things up.

Telling the table you just folded trip aces is asking for them to bluff you more often.

And I wouldn't get into the habit of folding sets in pub games, even on bad boards, they will wake up with worse a lot too, and you have outs vs anything if you are behind.

And keep one thing you learned in mind (next time you have a straight or better) - basically most everyone told you they are incapable of folding trips and would rather be knocked out than do so. There is the possibility the villian put you on a set and figured you were like the rest of the crowd so he shipped it.
But I am unclear - what did he show you?

Typically a 'solid' player wouldn't be overshoving so HUGE on the turn. It's pretty piss-poor bet-sizing tbh.

You know, in thinking this over from the villain's point, it could be...

If he put DeSelby on a set, he might have been afraid of the dreaded board pair on the river. Deciding that the pot was big enough.

Not justifying his bet. Just trying to get in his head.


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It's possible, but it is Pubroom Poker so it probably won't be too sophisticated. It's not likely many of them are reading Sklansky when they are not playing. Gordon, maybe. They are pretty much going to do what has worked for them in the past - whether + or - EV

easy fold here.

tough fold here

The guy turned over QJ so he had two pair which I would have beat.

As a side note another guy this week had pocket aces, the flop produce and ace, Im unsure of what the other cards where as I was on another table but someone else on the table went all in, the guy with the aces called but lost as the other guy had a Full House.

my read on villain > Trying to make sense of something that makes no sense.. coming from a player with no sense.

how does that even work? is you have top set any pair on the board gives you a full house, except for another ace which gives quads, furthermore no other full house would beat yours

good catch. I was thinking the same thing.

When reading this i was reminded of a hand between booth and Ivey on High Stakes Poker. Ivey had KK and booth had 42s the board came something like 3d6s7d and booth shoves 300k. for a small pot of about 24k. Ivey couldn't call. I know it is a different situation but sometime you have to lay down a hand.

I am not surprised that he only had two pair but if i had the king with that board early on in a tournament i might shove and show. It sends a message for later when you have to shove.

The villain could have easily had AK, KQ, KJ, KT. with any of these hands his play wasn't out of line until the shove. With one of these hands what action does he think he will get from you on that board. I don't think you gave us suites but that could explain a lot.

Lately i have found you will find donks to call all in shoves when you hold the nuts more than they will call value bets. I don't know what it is but in the first two rounds of a tournament i have found people don't take me seriously when i ship the nuts.
p.s. I wouldn't have shown that hand until after the other hand was shown and he had a K.

Villain's play would be totally out of line with a K,and overbet shoving and showing the nuts is even worse.

I would have totally agreed with you until about a month ago and still do unless it is early on in tournaments that tend to have a fair amount of fish/donks. I play in a lot of live tournaments where you have a lot of people doing really stupid stuff early in tournaments. One guy that i play with in the same tournaments was always doubling up early on before the first break. I finally asked him how he was running so hot and he laughed and said i have been shoving the nuts. I laughed and thought what a donk. Then three weeks later we are at the same table and sure enough he moves all in on the turn and a solid Reg. calls. He turns over the straight and the reg has a set. Straigt holds for the win. I also know the Reg and at the break he was still waiting for a cash game and he was steamed. It he kept saying what kind of donk shoves i thought "x" (the guy who shoved) was a solid player.
So after the tournament i took "x" out for a beer and picked his brain. I found his rational was not totally crazy. In the first two rounds blinds are small we start with a 1/100 blinds structure. So we started to do some math and running several scenarios. After either flopping a large hand or getting one on the turn what do you really make early on in these tournaments? Not that much unless it is big hand vs. big hand. The board normally gets scary or it is so dry that the action also dries up. So if you make 20% how much does that help you in the long run compared to doubling up early on?

I almost never show my hand. He has always been showing the nuts. His reasoning is that it helps him later with the less experience players and I feel he has been shoving light against regs lately. I know on Sunday when I had top two pair he was light but I just couldn’t call.

A final thought about the JAQ flop. I had a similar situation occur a while back where UTG raised 3bb three people called and I called from the big blind with Kd10d. The flop came AdQsJd. I checked and UTG bet 2/3 pot and with one other caller and I called. The 10c came on the turn and I checked again and UTG bet the pot. I shoved thinking the UTG had the straight and we would probable split the pot plus I was on a freeroll with the diamond draw. If the diamond came on the river I wouldn’t be able to get anymore from him but I thought he would call the all in on the turn. He called and we split the pot.

Personally I have had Pocket As ran over so many times that slow playing them isn't even an option any more. I will bet it at least 5x the blind. At least that way if someone calls then you can put them on big cards. If they don't, then you take the blinds and be happy that you are seeing another hand.

@drive , if it's a tourney best to just open shove . probably been snakebit too many times with aces but if i'm going down i might as well just do it quick

His shove on the turn, sure he has a King sometimes but I'm unsure why he would shove him losing value from his monster hand? Flatting or just raising a little shows he has a King more times than shoving the turn.

Your donk min bet into the pot on the turn sensed so much weakness from him he thought you had something like a pair with maybe a straight draw.

When he shoves the Turn I'd snap call quite easily, there is a very little chance he is shoving a straight here he wants a lot more chips if not them all so calling, or half betting 3/4 betting the pot in the hope you call reeks of a straight.

I think you should of bet pot sized on the flop though.

The first part of my post was respodning to the question what did the guy have when he showed his hand, the situation when I folded my set.

The second part refers to ...........

I see what you mean, mmmm I will have to ask Thursday when we play again if the guy is there, he should be. I was on another table and was only interested in giving a bit of banter back at one of the guys who gave me a load of stick for folding my aces. It was almost a relief to see someone call and all in with the same hand and lose, I sort of felt my earlier decision was almost forgiven and would no longer be the talk of the pub!. I will honestly find out what the FH hand was and let you know but I do agree now thinking about it its a bit strange. Maybe I miss understood and the guy didnt have pocket aces but flopped two aces while holding one? As I say I will find out.

DeSelby

Excellent post. --


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It is exactly because people would think that I am a moron if I shove with a K here that I shove. On a super wet board like that which my opponent almost certainly has a piece of, I am banking my opponent thinks "aha! no way he's so stupid as to shove the nuts here so he must be bullshitting!"

If it was me I wouldn't show my AA after folding. Then again, I rarely show.

Guys sorry for the late responses, not able to get on Poker sites from work and have very limited free time at the moment, the second situation I described above was actually involving a Flush v set Aces. Obviously I am at a low standard at the moment to not instantly pic up the error of me writing a Full House.

Incidental again the other night someone got pocket aces and flopped another. So in the space of about six weeks this has happened in the same pub three times. This time the set of aces also lost the hand. This time to a straight.