Folding KK Preflop

#1 23rd May 2012, 11:13 PM

You are playing heads up SNG hold em. Its toward the middle of the game. Stacks are even.

You have noticed that your opponent is pretty tight and raises EVERY time he has an ace.

You are delt kk.

You raise 5 times the BB

Your your opponent shoves you all in.

You know there is a very good chance he has a10, aq, aj, or ak.

Many of you will say not fold.

After all you have a MADE hand ...kk.

But in this situation isnt pocket 2s, or 3s JUST as good as kk?

I mean either he hits his ace on the flop or he doesnt!\

If he hits the ace and you dotn have an ace ur screwed either way no mater WHAT you have unless you hit two pair or trips which is very unlikely.

So the fact that you have KK.... does it really mater when pushed all in with an ace.... ANY ace? Even ACE RAG?

#2 23rd May 2012, 11:45 PM

It absolutely matters. What if he pairs his kicker, and not his ace? That's why K-K is FAR superior to 2-2 in this situation. You said yourself; he shoves any Ace. So with K-K you are in pretty good shape, 2-2 not so much.

#3 23rd May 2012, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokernutts

Many of you will say not fold.

I'd expect everyone to say not fold. You're not folding KK preflop here. If his range is any A or any pair then you're around 2.5 to 1 favorite. And you're in the middle of the game presumably blinds are climbing...shove.

#4 24th May 2012, 12:06 AM

Yea 22/33 is absolutely the same as KK.

#5 24th May 2012, 12:08 AM

It's just never EVER going to be correct to fold KK preflop in a HUsituation. Don't do it.

#6 24th May 2012, 2:18 AM

Ol #7 sighting, cool.
No excuse for folding here.

#7 24th May 2012, 2:58 AM

22 vs AQ (for example) - 22 is 52% to win
KK vs AQ - KK is almost 72% to win

Now you tell me - is there a difference? Does it matter? If not then you need to find another game.

#8 24th May 2012, 4:25 AM

You should fold here "but only if you are playing against me". No seriously you are ahead of all but one hand , you should love getting it in with KK.

#9 24th May 2012, 4:28 AM

And as MediaBLITZ pointed out not only ahead but "substantially" ahead.

#10 24th May 2012, 6:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MediaBLITZ

22 vs AQ (for example) - 22 is 52% to win
KK vs AQ - KK is almost 72% to win

Now you tell me - is there a difference? Does it matter? If not then you need to find another game.

Exactly. Even in a three way pot playing a full table 4 betting or shoving KK is the correct play. As Dan harrington saids when you have pocket kings you should never worry about coming up against pocket AAs as the chances of this occurring are 17 to 1. However, when it does happen you can shrug it off as a coller and know fall well that you did nothing wrong in the hand. Besides even if you do come up against ACEs you can still hit a king although unlikely it can will and does happen. I for one should know this well because i have seen it all when it comes to bad beats in poker.

#11 24th May 2012, 7:13 AM

I agree if it's heads up, shove and be happy what ya gonna do wait for AA to beat the bully, if he has Ax you are way ahead. superman can dodge bullets

#12 24th May 2012, 3:32 PM

The only situation where you should fold is when he shows you his AA.

#13 24th May 2012, 3:50 PM

I think you have to call his shove

Just my 2¢

#14 24th May 2012, 4:07 PM

Yah you gotta call the shove..no ifs..ands or buts about it.

#15 24th May 2012, 4:54 PM

I think there are only 2 situations where you can fold KK pre.
1) 1st hand WSOP main event
2) Final Table with a couple of all ins in front of you with a chance to climb the ladder
IMHO

#16 24th May 2012, 4:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjonius

The only situation where you should fold is when he shows you his AA.

... this ^^

#17 24th May 2012, 5:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seabrooknutzz

I think there are only 2 situations where you can fold KK pre.
1) 1st hand WSOP main event
2) Final Table with a couple of all ins in front of you with a chance to climb the ladder
IMHO

1st hand of the ME I'm not folding KK and it'd have to be 3 or more all ins before me on a final table before I'd even consider folding. I would fold KK pre in a satellite though if I was guaranteed to outlast shorter stacks.

#18 24th May 2012, 5:32 PM

I think the most important point here is correcting what you said about any pocket pair being equivalent to KK. Let's assume Villain is shoving AT, AJ, AQ, AK, AA. This is his shoving range. For completeness, let's look at the odds of him having any of these hands.

Combinations:
AA - 6 combos
AK - 8 combos (you have 2 of the kings)
AQ - 16 combos
AJ - 16 combos
AT - 16 combos

Total: 62 combos. Which means he only has AA about 10% of the times he shoves. And this is assuming we know his shoving range is this tight (in HU it might not be). So with KK, you are dominating his range 90% of the time, since as you said, he pretty much has to hit an A when he doesn't have two of them already.

Now let's consider 99 against the same range. Now, he's still dominating you the 10% of the time he has AA, but what's happening the other 90%? It's basically a flip. Against each hand in his range (aside from AA), you are winning about 55% of the time, and he is winning about 45% of the time. Because he doesn't have to hit an ace to beat you. If the kicker to his ace is 10 or higher and you have 99, he can just pair the kicker to be ahead. With AT he can hit an ace OR a 10, with AJ he can hit an ace OR a jack, etc etc.

I think some of the useful posts by Big_Rudy and MediaBLITZ are getting lost amidst the "LOLZ WHY WOULD YOU FOLD KK PRE?!??!" Make sure you understand why this is never a correct fold, not just the fact that it isn't.

#19 24th May 2012, 5:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scourrge

I think the most important point here is correcting what you said about any pocket pair being equivalent to KK. Let's assume Villain is shoving AT, AJ, AQ, AK, AA. This is his shoving range. For completeness, let's look at the odds of him having any of these hands.

Combinations:
AA - 6 combos
AK - 8 combos (you have 2 of the kings)
AQ - 16 combos
AJ - 16 combos
AT - 16 combos

Total: 62 combos. Which means he only has AA about 10% of the times he shoves. And this is assuming we know his shoving range is this tight (in HU it might not be). So with KK, you are dominating his range 90% of the time, since as you said, he pretty much has to hit an A when he doesn't have two of them already.

Now let's consider 99 against the same range. Now, he's still dominating you the 10% of the time he has AA, but what's happening the other 90%? It's basically a flip. Against each hand in his range (aside from AA), you are winning about 55% of the time, and he is winning about 45% of the time. Because he doesn't have to hit an ace to beat you. If the kicker to his ace is 10 or higher and you have 99, he can just pair the kicker to be ahead. With AT he can hit an ace OR a 10, with AJ he can hit an ace OR a jack, etc etc.

I think some of the useful posts by Big_Rudy and MediaBLITZ are getting lost amidst the "LOLZ WHY WOULD YOU FOLD KK PRE?!??!" Make sure you understand why this is never a correct fold, not just the fact that it isn't.

Ed Miller fan - HA!

#20 25th May 2012, 3:54 PM

if he has A6, your KK is higher than the 6, and will only lose if an A comes up. If you have 22 or 33, you can lose if your opponent hits an A or a 6.

Also a side note, you can NOT fold KK pre-flop heads up. If he has pocket aces then he has pocket aces, and if he has A-rag and then hits an A on the boards then oh well. You will win KK heads up so many times, you can not afford to fold it.

#21 26th May 2012, 2:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjonius

The only situation where you should fold is when he shows you his AA.

Even then I'm still not folding, its KK for **** sake!!!

#22 6th June 2012, 12:34 AM

Also don't 5x pre the first time

#23 6th June 2012, 12:47 AM

keepin tha kings... as scourrge explained...

#24 6th June 2012, 1:26 AM

always go all in with kings prefolp unless your sure he has aces. if you think he has a-x then still call because in poker you want to be ahead prefolp and if you get unlucky then you get unlucky. Dont let fear of bad luck get in ur way...

#25 6th June 2012, 1:53 AM

I'd always call allin preflop with KK and you should do the same.

#26 6th June 2012, 3:44 AM

why would you fold the second best hand to a random Ax hand. now if you tell me villian is only known to shove AA the fold.

#27 6th June 2012, 10:08 AM

The only reasonable time to fold KK is in a large tournament near-bubble situation against a larger stack. The nature of the bubble matters. If this is a tournament with roughly even or chop potential (i.e. Final 30 places qualify for equal or relatively equal prize or entry into some larger tournament).
In all other situations, you are playing to win 1st place and you should call with KK. The risk of your kings being cracked by a weaker hand is actually greater than the chance that you'll run into AA. If you do run into AA, you still have a 15% chance to win .

#28 6th June 2012, 10:21 AM

The only way I'm folding this is if I have a shorter stack on the bubble in any big event.

#29 6th June 2012, 3:51 PM

I actually considered it last night - for about a second and a half. Final table - 4 left - pays 5

$64,000 in play at the table.

One shove for $13,000
One shove for $13,500

I have $28,000 and am chip leader with KK

A beautiful set up to get down to 3 players, but also a set up if I call to go heads up holding a 5-1 chip lead. Like I said - I tried for about a second and a half to consider folding but it was a ludicrous option. I did think someone could have AA and just before calling said this is gonna be a bitch if it's a cooler. We flip them over - no cooler - QQ vs TT vs KK. TT rivers an inside straight for the win. I'll do the exact same thing every time in that situation.

#30 9th June 2012, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Daniels

I'd expect everyone to say not fold. You're not folding KK preflop here. If his range is any A or any pair then you're around 2.5 to 1 favorite. And you're in the middle of the game presumably blinds are climbing...shove.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenzie 96

Ol #7 sighting, cool.
.

I just noticed that now (I'm getting slow)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MediaBLITZ

I actually considered it last night - for about a second and a half. Final table - 4 left - pays 5

$64,000 in play at the table.

One shove for $13,000
One shove for $13,500

I have $28,000 and am chip leader with KK

A beautiful set up to get down to 3 players, but also a set up if I call to go heads up holding a 5-1 chip lead. Like I said - I tried for about a second and a half to consider folding but it was a ludicrous option. I did think someone could have AA and just before calling said this is gonna be a bitch if it's a cooler. We flip them over - no cooler - QQ vs TT vs KK. TT rivers an inside straight for the win. I'll do the exact same thing every time in that situation.

My chips would be in the middle faster than guy before me here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewsz1991

I don't think I'd ever fold pocket kings heads up. But that's just me.

same (obv.)
OP, pretty sure you might want to consider playing around with some odds calculators to see how hands match up vs. one another. (there are plenty of them out there.. google search is your friend)

#31 9th June 2012, 11:02 PM

Great answer. Love noting the odds. which all come into play.
The only thing I saw missing was taking into concideration if the player is a donk. Dang bunch of em out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scourrge

I think the most important point here is correcting what you said about any pocket pair being equivalent to KK. Let's assume Villain is shoving AT, AJ, AQ, AK, AA. This is his shoving range. For completeness, let's look at the odds of him having any of these hands.

Combinations:
AA - 6 combos
AK - 8 combos (you have 2 of the kings)
AQ - 16 combos
AJ - 16 combos
AT - 16 combos

Total: 62 combos. Which means he only has AA about 10% of the times he shoves. And this is assuming we know his shoving range is this tight (in HU it might not be). So with KK, you are dominating his range 90% of the time, since as you said, he pretty much has to hit an A when he doesn't have two of them already.

Now let's consider 99 against the same range. Now, he's still dominating you the 10% of the time he has AA, but what's happening the other 90%? It's basically a flip. Against each hand in his range (aside from AA), you are winning about 55% of the time, and he is winning about 45% of the time. Because he doesn't have to hit an ace to beat you. If the kicker to his ace is 10 or higher and you have 99, he can just pair the kicker to be ahead. With AT he can hit an ace OR a 10, with AJ he can hit an ace OR a jack, etc etc.

I think some of the useful posts by Big_Rudy and MediaBLITZ are getting lost amidst the "LOLZ WHY WOULD YOU FOLD KK PRE?!??!" Make sure you understand why this is never a correct fold, not just the fact that it isn't.

#32 10th June 2012, 3:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zarrmonster

Great answer. Love noting the odds. which all come into play.
The only thing I saw missing was taking into concideration if the player is a donk. Dang bunch of em out there.

That's true, but it can be hard to know this for sure without a decent sample in your HUD. And in HU play it's anybody's guess what the idiot could be shoving...

#33 10th June 2012, 9:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zarrmonster

Great answer. Love noting the odds. which all come into play.
The only thing I saw missing was taking into concideration if the player is a donk. Dang bunch of em out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scourrge

That's true, but it can be hard to know this for sure without a decent sample in your HUD. And in HU play it's anybody's guess what the idiot could be shoving...

How does it even matter? (I'm tryin' hard not to be a negative dikwad)

#34 10th June 2012, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

How does it even matter? ...

I'm in agreement with this train of thought...

#35 7th July 2012, 4:47 AM

HU you are never folding KK

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